I see most people thinking of Dovahkiin as Shor's Incarnate, but after completing the Skyrim MQ I am more inclined to think he is Akatosh Incarnate.

Main reason is that supposedly Akatosh (whoever he may be: I don't think he is simply someone Alessia created) gives the right of being a Dragonborn, not Lorkhan. Graybeards said so and the Dragonborn Emperors were aligned with Akatosh, not with Shezzar/Lorkhan/Shor.

Yeah, Alduin is supposed to be an Incarnate of Akatosh as well but... he is supposed to be an Incarnate of Akatosh only as the World Eater, not all the time (I don't think an Aedra can appear without an Incarnate and only while the Incarnate fulfills the Aedra's will are they the same person). When Akatosh decides that Time needs to end, he will send Alduin to do it (strongly supported by the fact that you did not devour his soul) and as someone who fulfills will of Akatosh, he will be Akatosh Incarnate. But until than, he is not and Akatosh needs to send another Incarnate to put Alduin to his place.

Alternately, MK once said that two personalities of Akatosh could fight at the same time. While MK's words are not canon, the conflicts in Skyrim could be interpreted as Akatosh having conflicting thoughts about something:
- Akatosh rules over world and it is materialized as Alduin ruling over mortals. He sometimes thinks about "Should I stop ruling with an Iron Fist?" and mortal resistance strengthens. The heroes that resist are his Incarnates of that thought and gods helping the mortals (by giving them Shouts) can be interpreted as the other Divines telling Akatosh to loosen the grip. Alduin's resistance is the Incarnate of the other thought: continue to rule myself
- Akatosh decides to loosen the grip for some time: Alduin kicked into the future with an Elder Scroll
- time to review the situation and decide if the world should end or if he should strenghten his grip again. Return of slavery and destruction of the world Incarnate as Return of Alduin while his "Should I let it stay as it is?" thought incarnates as the Dovahkiin
- he decides that mortal world is alright and Alduin is defeated. However, Alduin not dying shows that he still intends to destroy the world and Alduin will than return as the World Eater one day

OK, now start shredding the theories apart

Sadly before the new developments of Skyrim, all Akatosh was was just something Alessia created. Personally, I'm utterly disappointed they decided to make Akatosh some super deity and Alduin his [censored]. As for your question, no I don't believe we could be an avatar of Akatosh. Form what I understand, Akatosh is now that giant Dragon statue in the Imperial City, his being frozen now lets the Alduin side run rampant...but thats was when Akatosh/Alduin was duality type thing, not some shanty first born child crap (if it is to be taken litterally). Aside from that, Tiber fills the empty spot of Lorkhan when ascends and goes through the mantaling act which would exclude Tiber and his heir for being avatars of Akatosh. Not to mention, its also said Lorkhan was at Alessia's death bed when the Amulet of Kings came to be, not just Akatosh.

History has shown Lorkhan appears to save the world/his creation when in its greatest time of need, not Akatosh. Tiber, Wulfharth, Peliniel ect were all aspects of Lorkhan, and Akatosh is no longer bound to save man (the pact he made with Alessia is no more) so there's no reason for him to give a rats ass about the world.

Please help me understand this opinion, surely if Akatosh is the dragon god of time then it dosen't matter when he was created. He's the god of time. He can give birth to Alduin before he's created with ease, people giving birth to their parents can happen in TES under certain circumstances. Alduin and Auriel could easily be considered the parents of Akatosh for these purposes considering that he is essentially a compromise between the two. I don't see where you're having a problem. Vivec was always a god. Yet he became a god at red mountain using Kagrenac's tools. Not hard to understand.

What part are you having trouble understanding exactly? My distaste at how Akatosh somehow is now the parent of Alduin? a God who's much older and isn't the completely made up mish mash of himself and Auriel? Note I said if it's meant to be taken litterally then I find it crap. I don't care about Akatosh being the Dragongod of time, mythopia and all that jazz makes it so, but I take issue with Akatosh all of a sudden having been presented as the parent of Alduin when Alduin was there first, when even mythopia doesn't explain as theres nothing in the Imperial pantheon that even aludes to Akatosh and Alduin being separate entities. You may love it, however, I don't.

I have no problem with you not liking it. I just felt that you were saying it dosen't make sense in an objective way. It may not make sense to you but that dosen't make it genuinely illogical or cause it to be that big of a surprise to anyone else.

I don't think it makes sense. Theres not been any previous lore that might denote Alduin/Akatosh being in a son/father relationship (that is if it is meant to be taken literally), which means we have to do some metaphysical digging to uncover the the real deal, but even then it doesn't make sense to me for Alduin to be the child of Akatosh. If anything, Akatosh should logically be the child of Alduin as its Akatosh who is made up of Auriel and Alduin, not Alduin made up of Aktatosh and Auriel or Akatosh and Alduin. However, this is not what the OP asked.

I rather like this theory, I always thought that the Dovahkiin being the dragon god made more sense then the Shor theory anyway. Sadly I'm not enough of a lore expert to help in picking apart this theory, it all sounds good to me.

@ OP: I kinda like parts of your theory. It fits the dual-personality bit. Even more, though, it's said in-game that there's no difference between a couple of dragons "arguing" as opposed to "kicking the living hell out of each other". Magnify that up a few notches, and you have the chaos caused by a god trying to make up its mind about something.

Akatosh is just a word and a name. God of time is god of time, no matter how you call him. You could say that Akatosh is how you call the benevolent part of him. Alessia adding Akatosh to the pantheon is simply worshiping of that benevolent part of him rather than one of more sinister parts of his nature. Hell, Akatosh, Auriel, Alduin may actually all be Incarnates of a nameless god, every Incarnate fulfilling its duty (for now, lets consider Akatosh to be the "nameless god of time"). Gods are not mortals, they are not so simple to understand or explain.



By the theory I posted, the giant dragon statue in the imperial city would be "Martin Septim", his dragon nature fully released. He ceased to be Martin Septim the moment he turned into a dragon and became part of Akatosh as his existence as statue that keeps Oblivion Gates shut fulfills that duty of Akatosh. Martin Septim is Akatosh now, but Akatosh is not Martin Septim.

Actually, I don't think ANY "Aedra Lord" can materialize in Nirn. They don't seem to be even able to speak yet alone materialize personally... they always use avatars that may quite likely not be them. They need avatars for everything and if Akatosh wants to destroy the world, he would need an avatar. That avatar would be Alduin and as a World-Eater, Alduin is Akatosh for he fulfills his will. Even in Skyrim, Alduin didn't die and it was strongly hinted that he will appear again when gods decide that it is time for world to end.

Looking at Alduin as an avatar does not break the old lore and it fits with the way the Divines act: indirect (if Akatosh appeared personally, it would break this rule). Taking "Alduin = Akatosh" words literally may have been a mistake.



Being bound to one god does not forbid you to be bound to other gods.
CoC was blessed by the Divines and was even supposedly Pelinal's Incarnate yet he took a place of the Daedroth Sheogoarth at the end.
Nerevarine was Nerevar while fulfilling his divine duty that Azura gave him, but he and Nerevar are not the same person (we know enough about Nerevar to be sure about his). Nerevearine is only Nerevar while he fulfills Nerevar's duties.

It is like when a King and his best friend tell the executioner to kill that person there. The Executioner swinged the axe and killed that person. So, who of three people killed that person?
Answer is all three. Executioner accepted to do it so he killed. But he is also their avatar, fulfilling their will and only at that moment, Executioner is also the King and King's best friend.



He is not getting the same treatment tough now does he?

Either way, is it anywhere hinted that Dovahkiin is Shor's Incarnate? From what I have seen, we only get awarded a Shout for saving Shor's beloved realm.

Isn't everything that appears in Mundus mortal in one way or another? Daedra Princes appear in a shape that can be banished from Mundus, and thus from the perspective of Mundus itself they (their shapes) are mortal. But Aedra can't be mortal or take shape in Mundus by themselves, so logically they'd need something mortal that already exists in Mundus that they can trick/convince into becoming an aspect of them. Can't this be the case with Akatosh? It's just a name that has been attached to the infinite god of time, and any variations are simply mortal vessels that have agreed to become a beacon for him. Even the name "Akatosh" is something mortal, since it can be forgotten.

1.) The being known as Akatosh and his mythology didn't exist until Alessia came up with the idea. He's certainly a God now and apparently acording to Skyrim always was, but until Skyrim he didn't exist prior to Alessia's invention of him. However, Skyrim's lore obviously contradicts that, which is quite dull in my opinion.

2.) According to the bit about the Thalmor's ultimate goals, if it is true then we know that Akatosh is no longer the Imperial champion and is now bound in stone and free from his deal with Alessia. There is simply no reason for Akatosh to stand against Alduin.

3.) Being blessed by the God's and being free to do as you please does not counter the act of Manteling Lorkhan, which Tiber did. For all intesive purposes, Talos is Lorkhan, for him to have been an avatar or representation of Akatosh doesn't jive to me.

4.) The very fact that he's standing up to/brought into direct conflict with Alduin alludes to likely being a representation of Shor. As I said, Lorkhan has manifested as a wandering spirit who saves/champions man kind in their time of need.

So, on-topic: there's really no need to think that the Dovahkiin is an incarnate. His dragon-soul definitely isn't the result of mantling (happens before he starts acting like a god), and he's not an avatar (because he has a family). This is straight out of merish lore: the races of Tamriel are all descended from dragons (/giants) and everyone has the soul of a dragon. The PC is just undergoing dracochrysallis.

Before his powers are revealed, can you think of anything the Dovahkiin does that would have resulted in him mantling Akatosh?

This is what I'm wondering about in my last post. If Aedra can simply spawn a mortal version of themselves on a whim, then they are just as free to meddle in the affairs of mortals as Daedra are. So I'm getting the feeling that avatars of Aedra are not simply created on the spot as an image of an Aedra, but are rather naturally pre-existing mortals that have been "taken over" or convinced by an Aedra.

Depends on how you look at it. The new lore reveals that Cult of Nine Divines existed long ago tough they were shown as animals. Taking that into consideration, the pact Alessia made with Akatosh may have been "You will support the Empire, I will restore the Nine Divines worship." and sold it as a new fate while in truth returning to the fate that was enforced during the Dragon rule. fitting, as Dragons rule again (for Dragonborn are nothing but Dragons in mortal shells).



Again, the whole point here is that Akatosh's/Auriel's conflicting thoughts create all the mess. If he thinks about should he support Aldmer ior the humans, than we would get a Auriel's Champion and Akatosh's champion. When Akatosh/auriel finally makes a decision, the Champion that represents that thought would win.



But he does not mantle Akatosh, only Lorkhan. Mantling and being an Incarnate are two different thing's. Mantling would mean that you lose all of your free mortal will and turn into the god in question, just like CoC turned into Sheo while seemingly losing all of his/her original traits. Incarnate means that you just fulfill a destiny.



Not everything is about Shor and Auriel. Even MK, who created most of these metaphysics, confirmed that Akatosh may fight Akatosh. I think we may have gotten exactly that in here.
Also as far as we know, the new Akatosh Vs Shor conflict may happen in the expansion or DLC.



I don't think you can just create an avatar. More likely, he is chosen from mortals or his birth was prepared ages ago.



Mantling would mean becoming a god completely. Incarnate would mean that you are just partially a god while mostly a mortal... possibly only for some time.
Additionally on topic of mantling, CoC wasn't Sheogorath from the very start either.

Except worship of the Eight and One is now down to just the Eight.



That may be the idea, but I don't believe that its the case. Akatosh only supported man through his deal with Alessia, a deal that is no longer void. There has only been two time in which Akatosh has come to the aid of men. The first time when he made the pact with Alessia and the second when he fought Dagon. Lorkhan has a much better track record of intervening in the affairs of man.



Noo, incarnate means that you are the mortal shell of an old soul that has been re-incranted through the dream sleeave. Every single man and mer on Tamriel is a reincarnate of a past original spirit that was trapped on Nirn during the creation. Akatosh cannot be reincranted without being dead and thrown into the dream sleeve.



No, but in this case theres a mirroring conflict that suggests the possibility. The idea of Akatosh fighting Alduin or Auriel is an internal/metaphysical/mental thing not a physical bash it out via different physical representations.



We've seen avatars in Morrowind, Mara and Zenithar I believe, people who seemingly disapear after you encounter them. Thus, I doubt they are just mortals taken over by the Gods.



Like I said, to be an incarcerate one would have to be a disembodied spirit in the Dreamsleave, therefore unless Akatosh is afloat in the sleeve you cannot be an incarnate of him.

Please forgive if this is wrong but my understanding is that the DOV were created in the image of there creator(akatosh) another term for creator?...is father so im guessing to the DOV'S it's pretty literal. I.E Alduin was the first to be created by akatosh/his firstborn and perhape's most powerfull child.

i agree with you though i do think it svck's that instead of alduin being a majorly powerful threat we got pretty much just a rather strong old old old old dragon. personally i put it down to beths not being able to come up with a satisfactory answer to how a mortal even one born with the soul of a dragon can kick the ass of a world devouring god without it feeling cheap.

They could have had the Dovahkiin recreate the creation of Mundus by ripping out his own heart and bind the Great Dragon of Time back to Mundus <_<

Guess Beth doesn't want the dragon of time to be a complex creature, but a paragon of virtue, good things and etc.

Which may quite nicely affect Tamriel. It definitely is going downhill for Empire and uphill for the Aldmeri.



Akatosh was forgotten after the Dragon War, probably because Dragons saw him as their Father which may have made humans not like him. Pact with Alessia returned him back and with him being worshiped again, he can act again. On other hand, Shor was always worshiped by Nords so he naturally has a better track record than Akatosh.

On other hand, we may have another Nerevearine incident: we think we are saving the land but end up destroying it instead. There is no guarantee that what we are doing will not screw up a big bunch of people.



OK, I probably should have used avatar instead of incarnate ^_^;



The winner, as I said, would be the winner from higher plane. What happens in mortal realm is just a mirror of the divine conflict. If Akatosh decided to destroy the world now, Alduin would have won against Dovahkiin and do his stuff. The main battle happened inside Akatosh, not in Sovngarde. Only the result happened in Sovngarde



They used Divine Intervention scrolls and we just never met them again. We don't meet every person that exists in Vvardanfel after all, only a sample of them. There is no guarantee that those people we met weren't something else who also served as avatars. May as well have been a vision caused by the artifacts being nearby. They definitely didn't do that much.



Like Azura who obviously was a nice god... when in reality she was an evil *BEEP* that just wanted vengeance and Nerevearine was a perfect instrument of destruction. There is no guarantee that Akatosh ain't fooling everyone around while acting as Mr. Nice Guy as well. Being against one evil does not make you a champion of virtue. Red Year should have proven that.

Actually, if the whole Mythopia thing is correct hes not able to act in deceit unless the people believe he is so there is a guarantee that the Aedra arn't just jerking people around. They behave the way people believe them to behave. The same cannot be said for Daedra.

It was never said that it's the same Akatosh that the Imperial worship. In fact, Akatosh was an Aldmeri god ("Akatosh", not "Auriel). Pelinal and Dagon also use the word "Aka."

Toah Raka. Alkosh. Akatosh may very well be what Time choose to call himself before Mundus, mortals, and Lorkhan had their way with him.

Also, Alduin being the son of Akatosh doesn't mean he isn't Akatosh either. The Raga and Cyrodiils have different stories on how Arkay came to be. Are they different gods? Their Alduin (Satakal) likewise is more connected to the Aurbis itself than Time.

It just depends on how we interpret 'firstborn'. We know from in-game texts that dragons aren't born, so that rules out the literal translation - it's not a father/son relationship in any traditional sense, besides he's noted as being eternal.

I imagine the best interpretation is something along the lines of Alduin being the first implication of Akatosh (as time); the first implication being that there is an end to time, that end is Alduin. Sure, he's the king of the dragons, but he's unique amongst dragons, and dragons still hold mythic significance (they're not just flying lizards).

Granted, I do agree that Alduin using the name Akatosh is stupid. We'll have to explain that away somehow, perhaps he was only using it so you - the puny mortal he's speaking to - would have a frame of reference for what he's referring to. He's actually talking about time-as-god, but uses the term Akatosh for convenience to stupid-ole'-you.

The time-god existed prior, he just wasn't called Akatosh. Alessia marks mankind's turn towards following the time-god, which in turns marks his entrance as time-god-as-Akatosh.

It also helps that the first guy you meet in Sovngarde says that the Hall of Valor is where people await the final battle between Shor and Alduin (iirc). I think it's fairly safe to say that we took up the part of Shor in that battle.

That's reincarnate. Incarnate must mean no such thing. Incarnate simply means that something has been vested with or taken on bodily/human form. You're right that Akatosh cannot be reincarnated (in the traditional sense) without being dead, but he can become incarnate all he wants.

That "there's no evidence against it" is the worst argument for something that can possibly be put forth, for anything, ever. This makes you wrong by very merit of using such a bad argument.

They were avatars of the Divines, play Morrowind, read your journal, talk to the priestess at the castle. Never speak of this again lest you be stoned to death by ferrets.

What is it with all these dual personalities? Were Akatosh and Sheogorath the only daedra/aedra with these opposites?

I know, well as I think about it, Sheo's and Alatoshs dual personalities were both reduced down to one with thier respective incidences.

Doesn't make sense in a story sense.

So far we've had the Monomyth and Faith in the Empire describing all religions as different versions of the same story. Be it with some actors missing in some, some stranger ones in others. Akatosh, Alduin, Auri-El. They hold the same position in each phanteon. Gods of time. Different visions of the same set of concepts.

If Alduin and Akatosh ever talk about each other they should talk about them in terms of mirror images. That god, that is like me, but is not like me. Where they recognize their own thoughts, yet see themselves as alien. Yet Alduin in Skryim is just a Dragon. With a Dragon mommy and a Dragon daddy and little Dragon brothers and sisters. It's a completely different vision.

Now I'm borrowing terms from Shor Son of Shor, but the underlying concept, a world where gods are different cultural variations on a theme, as presented in the Monomyth and Faith in the Empire does not fit with the idea that Akatosh would sire Alduin. Had it rather then Akatosh been Anui-el, Fadomai, Nir, all names not present in the Nordic mythology, it would have made more sense. They've all been giving birth to gods.

I stick with my former argument. It's not birthing in any literal sense, with Dragon mommies and daddies; we can conclude as much by the dremora's statements that Dragons are not born. The best interpretation I see present is as a 'first implication' or 'first aspect'. Actually, I think I like first aspect better than first implication the more I think about it.

Furthermore, I also like 'Akatosh' being Alduin's term of convenience as I mentioned above, though I think the "first aspect" translation works either way.

Aah we were posting at the same time. I had not seen your argument yet. Now yes I agree, the problem really is with the name Akatosh and only that. Though I would not say that time gave birth to Alduin, rather that was the interplay. The concept of time merely allowed those concepts created in the interplay to persist. But we can argue about that and it'd an interesting debate.

But what Dremora are you talking about? I must have missed this in game, I have yet to meet any Dremora. Though I must admit that by playing a ranged, stealth character, I may have missed some opportunities for conversation.