So strawmen? I honestly can't think of a single person on these forums who would call Fallout 1 and 2 perfect and anyone who does so clearly hasn't played them much.


Strength only gives bonus damage to melee weapons. For some reason Fallout 3 split melee damage and unarmed damage into two separate things and the latter isn't changed by any stat only unarmed skill.

Well according to game guide on SPECIAL, perception is supposed to effect your accuracy. Agility your run speed, weapon draw, reload, obviously int reflects skill points and luck crit, endurance hp and resistances.

So.. you actually play an agility 1/pe 1 character and see if it hinders your combat as to higher values?

I, have not, as I play to fight, so my PE, Ag, and Luck are always high...

If there is a noticeable difference in your characters combat effectiveness, it would seem as advertised.

Which game guide? In 3 agility definitely has no impact outside of VATs but in New Vegas it has a major effect on holstering and reload speeds. Run speed isn't changed in either.

I never had trouble hitting anything with low perception in either 3 or New Vegas and people who have tested it on the wiki agree. It just changes when red dots show on your compass.

Okay, FO3 guide is different. Had to track it down.

But, in the guide, under str, it specifically lists power fist as receiving the str bonus, which should be unarmed skill.

The descriptions in the fo3 guide is general and vague.

I will say this, with agility 1 your gun skill will svck, and for me, who used vats, I would have problems. I'm not super gamer. Turn based, is easy for me, real time stuff, a lot more difficult.

I played a power fist melee character in 3, and I fairly certain when I popped buffout, cuz my ste was not 10, my damage went up, even at 100 skill.

Again, I can see what they were trying to do with SPECIAL, and I do not think they were trying to dumb it down.

Btw, first time I died FO3 was right out of the vault, walking around and boom, hit by raider with RL before I knew what was up. Then dead. But, after awhile, FO3 easy, also. But, as my first game like this, was learning curve.

Whether they intended to or not, the results are the same.

Maybe a power fist counts as a melee weapon for some reason? Dunno the guide can be wrong all I know is unarmed damage is definitely not changed by any stat only your skill in Unarmed. A strength 1 and strength 10 character with equal skill in Unarmed will deal the exact same amount of damage with their fists.


Well this is like saying with a charisma of 1 your speech skill will svck without using any skill points therefore charisma was not a dump stat in Fallout 1.


Like I said it's been tested thoroughly. Unarmed damage is only changed by unarmed skill. You can check the wiki yourself if you don't believe me.


Well as Calgone above me has pointed out regardless of what they were trying to do that was the effect.

Okie: So, I did a little test.

Started up FO1. Made PE 2 character, gifted. Tagged small guns, speech, doctor. Dumping Cha, I had Int, Luck, Agility at 10. Str 7, EN 6.

Small guns 55%. Intro rats, had 61-63% to hit, point blank range.

PE 10, to hit was 95%.

Killed all rats, waited, did a vault quest, computers, level 2. Dumped all 20 skill points into small guns. Now, 95%.

Went Shady Sands. Arrived at night. Did to hit tests. Point blank to hit, now 95%. Waited until morning, as FO has darkness modifiers.

From 9 squares away, to hit with 10mm pistol 70 some %. Pb aimed shot to eyes 42%, head 65%. Groin 72%. With hunting rifle I sure the longer shot better.

That is level 2. Because of the bonus from hunting rifle and I think also sniper rifle, this character wouldn't be the most ideal sniper, long range shooter, but it is hardly the utter crippled character, and would be just fine with burst weapons, especially combat shotguns.

I took gifted/finesse, but that build may be better with gifted/fast shot. However, because a couple decent perks are unavailable because of the low PE, finesse + 3 levels of more crits may work fine.

Anyway, a low PE character is not a crippled shooter, you just won't win any sniper awards, and as I figured, gun skill makes huge impact, and after 1 level up, I have a higher to hit on a enemy 9 squares away as opposed to point blank from level 1.

Try taking long shots with that low PE character and you can really see a difference. Point blank isn't a very good range for ranged combat you know... XD

Fallout 3 was bad because it was first person and sandbox? Isn't New Vegas the same? Can't you play in third person?

I said, one level up, my to hit from 9 squares away was 70+%. That isn't point blank, and was the % with a 10mm pistol, which is same as the smg. Just got to junktown, so I will test out hunting rifle. But, I have over 100 kills, all with 10mm pistol or smg. A struggle, it has not been.

Hunting rifle test: from 15 squares away, to hit 88% and 20 it is 60%. Gun skill 121. Level 4 character. My point was this is hardly a crippling. Most of the combat btw, especially in FO2, is at a relatively close range. The only times I make long range shots, is against turrets.

Nice Tests. Could you do it for Tactics too? As far as I remember Perception has an huge impact on accuracy, much more than in F1 and F2.

Well, I don't even have to test it to tell ya PE is way more of a impact in Tactics.

In fact, Sharpshooter perk is basically useless in 1 and 2, but a very nice perk in Tactics. Because you need PE for bonus rate of fire and I believe better crits, in all the games, really if you want to use guns, and especially in Tactics, you do want a high PE.

However, in 1 and 2, the low PE character is not as horrible as Okie described. Sure, high PE would make it easier, but I didn't take a point of damage since I left the vault cave, when I was very reckless killing rats cuz I wanted to clear it asap.

Ok, I could only be arsed to skim so far before I got bored, so here are my limited responses for the win!


What? Why?


The amount of time you've already dedicated to posting about said people seems to illustrate an issue you have with them (us?) taking up far too much space in your mind. Something to work on perhaps? It really shouldn't be important to you if I hate Bethesda and their take on the Fallout series.


What the heck else would you have us do with it? Play it? My god are you mad?

Likewise, the amount of time you dedicate to bashing Beth in one way or the other, I would imagine 90% of your posts, is taking up far too much space in your mind. Something to work on perhaps?

We get it, you hate Beth, you hate FO3 and Skyrim. Good for you!! Run along to a nunnery, wait 18 months, and I'm positive you will have something new and fresh to moan about, called Wasteland 2. To a nunnery now, good bye.

Well shucks. I am on a discussion board to discuss things. When people start throwing out the same tired "This is why F3/Beth is teh suxxorz" lines that they have been posting for years, that's the direction the discussion gets steered. I don't have an "issue" with anyone. You are certainly entitled to like or dislike anything you want. I just like to point out what i find to be odd behavior.

I cannot imagine myself not liking a game and taking time out of the day to not only create an account, but post at least semi regularly at a forum that deals with that game just to say I hate it, because thats bat [censored] crazy behavior.

I will re-itterate that there are at least some offer up some constructive criticism. Thats cool. Tell a dev why you dont like a game. What youd rather see.

But you should also be prepared for people who don't have the same "issues" that you have defending what they think is good, without resorting to condescending them for doing so.

Play ball... ?

+1

Exactly my original beef.

Ehehe. Dance puppets, dance.

Play first kill later..

So a 30%+ (since you can't get higher than 95% but higher to hit chances make a big difference against tougher opponents) difference just in scoring normal hits against rats. The weakest enemies with the lowest AC in the game.


Did you test how your 10 PE character performed with similar or lower skills?

Because my 10 PE character with only 65% in small guns had 95% to hit at 9 squares away, 48% eyes, 68% head, 74% groin. So basically a character with 30 fewer skill points is still significantly outperforming your more skilled 2 PE character at ranged combat. With equivalent skill levels I can only imagine how much he outstrips him. You're right that the 2 PE character is not as crippled when it comes to ranged combat as I would've hoped but the fact remains that there's a clear and significant difference between those two characters. SPECIAL was defining in the originals. It's far less so in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

Actually 15 skill point difference, as I tagged small guns.

But, what is the rest of your special?

Point is a 2 pe can use guns. I was crippled for the time to get to level 2.

The question is why? If I want to be a gunslinger, I would not self nerf PE. I could, obviously, I'm just not getting some perks and probably looking at a couple levels of toughness.

Even in 3 and NV there are very important perks for a playstyle, and you're not getting them with PE2. Those perks make a playstyle more efficient. Which if you ask me, PE 10 AG 10, makes you more efficient.

Nunnery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I meant 30 as in the difference between 65 and 95 but you're right that's not necessarily skill points. My bad.


Strength 5, Endurance 4, Charisma 2, Intelligence 9, Agility 9, and Luck 8.


You're still going to be at a severe disadvantage afterwards if you plan to ever use ranged weapons with consistent effectiveness against opponents with higher AC and HP than rats and Shady Sands peasants.


What very important perk am I not going to be able to get for a sniper in Fallout 3 with 1 PE? Sniper just boosts your chance to hit in VATs and you won't get Better Criticals. Big whoop. Critical are potent enough with high luck and basically limitless given how broken and easy to exploit sneak critical are from a distance.

New Vegas you do have more important perks which tend to require stat investments which is one of the myriad reasons I'm a lot more forgiving of and sympathetic to it than Fallout 3. They don't make your playstyle more efficient to the point where you're nerfed without them though as a ranged combat guy with 2 PE is in the originals. I did an entire playthrough with a cowboy repeater on vanilla NV without ever getting the Cowboy perk.

So I guess the challenge is on, and I need to test this all the way to Enclave. Challenge accepted young Valon.

My beef with FO3 is the complete neutering of SPECIAL and skills... and little lamplight, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY LITTLE LAMPLIGHT@!@@@ Putting a cave full of invincible children in the main storyline and using the logic that would only work if the bombs had just dropped to explain its existence is the reason for the first time I have ever nerd raged at a video game. I have almost never taken the main quest past that cave because I can not tolerate its existance.

I like the first person perspective and to an extent the sandbox world. I wish the area of the world could be larger and more NPCs could be put on the screen at 1 time.

Hopefully for FO4 they will put emphasis on SPECIAL and skills so that they actually mean something.

EDIT: if Little Lamplight had been a side attraction that was completely separate from the main storyline I would not have disliked it.... Easter eggs I can handle, but shoe horning in illogical stuff into the main story is just utterly poor design.

Aww, it's ok. Some day you'll find a nice lady who won't laugh at you.