Well, hate to say this, but SPECIAL almost meaningless in FO1, because, like 3 and NV, Charisma is meaningless.

So with dropping CHA to 1, your character, will be ungodly good.

In 2, you can do the same. You can just chew on mentants if you want companions, but again, you will become ungodly good.

Unless you want to nerf yourself, none of these games are hard, and special does not break a character. And it shouldn't, otherwise there would be only one SPECIAL way to win.

But see, the things you point out do not make FO3 a bad game.

And turn based...meh. And I love turn based. Now, I would like to see a Tactics 2 strat game that was turn based. But, I don't mibd real time, vats, or first person.

Not to mention I'm tired of the WC. Game stays on WC it will just be more and more of same factions growing, shrinking, growing.

But a lot of this is what you want improved. I also wouldn't be surprised if 3 had more quests than 1 or 2. Not to mention there is not too much to the quests...many of them are extremely easy.

A lot you list is cosmetic or mechanics. That can all be addressed, but I take the small settlements of 3 because people left, not wanting to live in a craphole. The people who do stay and try to make it work, well they got guts, or crap for brains.

1. That is a flaw that is along every game, I don't abuse it's uselessness.

2. It can break a character and should.

3. Never said it was a bad game, said it was a bad Fallout game.

4. ... Powder Gangers, Van Graffs, The Strip, Freeside, Jacobstown, Legion, none of these were in past Fallout games, so why exactly would it be about the same factions? I'd rather have a sequel be consistent with what it follows up on than to have it set in an area where it has little to no connection to anything else. I also want to see some of the choices that one could make and what was canon.

5. Fallout 3 has 17 sidequests, so no, it doe not have more quests than either Fallout 1 or 2.

6. How can a map node system be adressed with a giant sandbox map? How can isometric view be adressed with First Person based gameplay? How can realistically sized cities and towns be adressed if they have to be scaled down?

1. Yes, I'd much rather see the white knights of the EC BoS fight evil-doers for the rest of the fallout series.

2. Fallout 3 had like 26 quests INCLUDING DLC , I can think of a few that can be completed in less than a minute (power of atom comes to mind).

You missed my point. I can kill everyone and get a free pass. Even after nuking them. By everyone I mean NCR and Legion, but really you can kill everyone. If you wanted, and no real consequence.

Just like in FO1 and 2. That my point as well, there no consequence.

And Enclave and Super Mutants are NOT canon breaking by appearing in DC. It also never says FEV was ONLY at Mariposa. And it explained where Enclave came from.

You don't know or see everything in a game.

I know the stories behing BoS, Enclave, Super Mutants. FO3 does not break canon, just adds to it.

I wouldn't want a game on EC either. Midwest. But thanks for saying something I did not say.

A vast many quests in FO1 and 2 can be completed extremely fast. NV had a lot of quests. It took me a good length of time to complete some quests in FO3, and I did not say some were not quick. But same can be said with all, including NV.

And Special breaking a character? So there should only be one way to put in your special or your character broke?

So the FONV is not agood FO game either, cuz it is 1st person, no mapnode, and sandbox.

1- The consequences are not being able to interact with those people, cutting yourself off from missions, losing rep with their faction and so on. At least they aren't like Bethesda who seem to absolutely hate anything that restricts the player to the point where things stop making sense.

2-


Those things are not what make a good Fallout, they are just the mechanics. The thing that makes a Fallout is an understanding of the phrase 'war, war never changes'. Bethesda did not understand this and it reflects in Fallout 3's themepark wasteland, poorly explained factions ripped from the originals and general mantra of 'if its awesome then shove it in'. Fallout 3 was entirely the player's story, New Vegas was the wasteland's story(just like the originals).

This , Bethesda has it in them to make a fallout game new comers and dinosaus will like but they seem to think that we all hate consequencs and can only play a game after some dumbing down .

I think your a tad harsh but you have apoint , whenever I watch a todd howard interview he just talks about how much awesome he can squeeze in the game(s) and istvan summed it up well with "massive awesome"

According to Gab it does. His reasoning why 3 is not FO, well then by using that as part of his rationale, neither is NV.

And if you don't want to accept the reasons those factions are east, then I guess you shouldn't accept the MWBoS, either.

The appearance of those factions are not explained by magic, and they have their story.

Gee, I guess the BoS shouldn't have been in FO2 either. How dare they leave Lost Hills. And whattt are Super Mutants doing in 2...

Factions are supposed to stay in place and frozen in time? Sheesh.

Oh and if that is what you all mean by consequences, then it is the same in every game.

I've tried to argue that fight before but it won't work I agrre that fonv has no incentive for you to give a crap about the 4 factions "well you're here now so pick one" is the impression I got .and isn't tactics like semi or completely non cannon?

Exactly. I care cuz I have a note in my pocket? Umm, I just got shot in the head and buried. Send your "mercs". My main quest basically ends when I kill Benny.

I like NV, and the DLC are fantastic, but I have never finished the game because I do not care. I had more of an emotional attachment to my main quest in 1, 2, and 3.

And, if you want, you can make fun of main quests of 1 and 2. Okay, water chip or we all die? Really? Leave. Go get water. There is like.. a town right there, and as people love to point out, they are growing crops! Other people are living, but I guess...the vault people are doomed...even though they have not one, but two GECKS.

FO2 is the same. Umm, it a drought. Move, trade more, make yourselves useful. The only answer is a GECK?

But people like to specifically bash Beth. How about you just have fun?

Good point with the geck thing actually.

1. Well don't you have a creative imagination, I would like to take a qoute from John Henry Eden's Signature, "The game is a tool for your imagination. Bad roleplayers blame the tool."

2. I can also say the same about fallout 3, my dad escaped from the vault and even though I didn't escape with him I'm considered a threat so I have to escape too?

What was this thread orignally about anyways?

My imagination is just fine, and my character feels no reason to care about NCR, Legion, or House.

And, are you trying to prove my point that all the games have flaws, regardless of designer? Play and have fun, or don't play. Many of the arguements that some use about why Beth is awful, can be used almost verbatim for 1,2, Tactics, and NV.

Wait, THAT'S what we were arguing about? I had no idea, because I agree that every game does have flaws (but still, I find fallout 3 to have a bit more flaws than others IMO), well, now what's there to argue about? Eh, I guess I'll leave.

Then you're obviously not trying, it doesn't take an awful lot of effort to come up with a reason as to why the Courier would care about one of those factions.

It's not a case of rp'ing imo I just feel it is a rare moment of below par writing in fonv there is literally no incentive to pick them when the courier isn't from there or have any ties.
It's like me going to jamaica then having four factions/groups/partys etc approach me and expect me to care.

Except that it is, if you can't think of a reason as to why the Courier would sympathize with any of the three factions then that's not the game's fault. Plenty of other folks have had no problems coming up with good reasons.


I'm not sure why this matters, besides the obvious fact that what happens in the Mojave will have a huge impact on all of the West, whether or not the Courier has any ties to Mojave does not at all have any bearing on his or her beliefs and why he or she would support one group or the other. Do you think the NCR and Legion only exist in the Mojave? And I can think of plenty of reasons as to why the Courier would side with House or Yes Man despite having no prior connections to the Mojave.

I'm saying what I think makes Fallout what it is and why I think Fallout 3 is not a good Fallout.

I didn't say that I'm not willing to believe that the Brotherhood, the Enclave and Harold could have traveled thousands of miles, I'm saying that if an explanation is given why it is a very poor one. Thus my use of this:
The Brotherhood are there because they are trying to find advanced tech in the nations capital(fair enough); the Enclave somehow have a massive amount force on the west coast that wasn't mentioned in any of the previous games(okay...); Harold who was in Gecko during the events of Fallout 2, for some reason decided to leave when they needed him most and travel to the other side of the country(bullcrap); and FEV is in the hands of a civilian company and was being successfully experimented with even though it was only developed a couple of years before the great war(reaching...very far). Bethesda's explanations are either unimaginative, 'a wizard did it' or non-existent.

Note: There are extensive reasons why the super mutants are in 2.
I'm sorry that you can't find any reason to care about the events of New Vegas, I personally feel very little to emotionally care about any of the events of Fallout 3.

Despite how it may seem I don't actually hate Bethesda and I don't hate Fallout 3. I just recognize that Bethesda did poach many of the ideas from previous Fallout's, the mechanics of Oblivion and combined it all. I really enjoyed Fallout 3 and it was my first Fallout. It encouraged me to play New Vegas and eventually the originals as well. After all of this I decided to go back and play it again, this is what confirmed my suspicions about it being the black sheep of the Fallout's I have played(1, 2, 3, NV). We don't actually know how much of Fallout 3 is considered canon.

I do think that Bethesda can make a good Fallout game. As long as they actually come up with new creative ideas instead of making up reasons to bring back overdone factions.

I'm not really interested in having an argument right now because the fact is that we aren't going to convince each other. We'll just end up slinging the same words at each other over and over again until the end of this thread. I suggest we just agree to disagree.

I'm not gonna bother getting involved with this anymore, but I'd just like to say that I concur with most of what Gab has said.

Why don't you enlighten me. I desire revenge. After I get it, I don't care. Then there are 3 groups bickering, and I don't care.

As a matter of fact, after I killed Benny, I would probably just leave, if that was an option, hoping that they all kill each other.

that really just depends on your own frame of mind and the character that you create doesn't it...and in time one of those factions will eventually take over the lands and you will be part of it, so it's best to make a difference. There won't be many places to leave to that are safe for you.

This is where that imagination of yours comes in, so you can either get creative and actually flesh out the Courier like you're supposed to, or stubbornly stick to your guns and be determined not to care. All I'm saying is that it's certainly possible for the Courier to care about what's going on in the Mojave, I've come up with plenty of stories as have many other people, if you can't or are unwilling to even try then that's fine, but don't blame the RPG for expecting you to role play.

And spend the rest of your life dodging mercs Mr House sends after you for not finishing your job, sure sounds like a good life.

I felt more compelled in NV then I ever did in Fallout 3, F3 required you to feel something for your father in that game, but didn't realize how dumb he was, one bad decision after another until he eventually killed himself for no real reason other then "well this is mine and if I cant have it no one can", which is selfish as hell to the player character and the rest of the CW.