Could Skyrim's Dovahkiin have lit the Dragonfires? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:26 am

It's all in the Dragon Breaks, Vilnii. The whole point of the Marukhati Dance was to make Akatosh real for real, and to have always been real. It only worked in a very limited way. And while I'm sure the use of the Amulet of Kings probably strengthened the distinctions between Nirn and Oblivion, it was hardly the main thing. It was many of the Towers failing at once as caused it, White Gold just being the one it was easiest to "reboot" so to speak, using a ritual that had gained poer over time rather than being somehow given or created by the gods as a part of a larger pact.

Alessia was smart, conniving, devious and intelligent. Much like Vivec. Also like Vivec, she had the furtherance and survival of her people at heart for all she did, good or bad. And her invention of Akatosh may well have saved Tamriel thousands of years down the line, but it doesn't change that she lied when she first made him up.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:51 am

Exactly, she was great ruler, and all great rulers have to lie, cheat, kill and manipulate, but she still made it all up.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:46 pm

The central discussion we are having here is whether the barriers between Oblivion and Mundus were sealed because of a pact between Alessia and Akatosh.

The answer is YES, and it is not propaganda.

The political compromise that brought Akatosh into the Cyrodillic Pantheon does not change this reality. Whether by lies, conniving, shrewd...however you choose to describe it.

The point is that a compact between Alessia and Akatosh allowed those barriers to be sealed until Mankar came along.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:56 am

See I thought the central discussion was why Alessia was full of crap.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:09 am

See I thought the central discussion was why Alessia was full of crap.

I'll take the blame for this, but I had to defend the Slave-Queen!

I think you've all settled it pretty nicely.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:00 pm

It's all in the Dragon Breaks, Vilnii. The whole point of the Marukhati Dance was to make Akatosh real for real, and to have always been real. It only worked in a very limited way.

No, no, no, no. Dragon Breaks are not history altering plot devices. Akatosh was already real. There had already been enough time to add Cyrodic elements to the mixture of Alduin and Auri-El. For the selective the problem was that there were still primary elven concepts in Akatosh which they could not remove.

So they aimed bigger. They made themselves gods, pure human gods. I would assume that in doing so they aimed to replace the tainted Nine Divines. Never the less, with eight gods walking Mundus things get a little messy.

And while I'm sure the use of the Amulet of Kings probably strengthened the distinctions between Nirn and Oblivion, it was hardly the main thing. It was many of the Towers failing at once as caused it, White Gold just being the one it was easiest to "reboot" so to speak, using a ritual that had gained poer over time rather than being somehow given or created by the gods as a part of a larger pact.

Yes, I concur. Though the Remanda says the following:

Snakes and the warnings of snakes went unheeded and the land bled with ghosts and deepset holes unto cold harbors. It is said that even the Chim-el Adabal, the amulet of the kings of glory, had been lost and its people saw no reason to find it.

But I think that is just a reference to the internal strife going on.

Alessia was smart, conniving, devious and intelligent. Much like Vivec. Also like Vivec, she had the furtherance and survival of her people at heart for all she did, good or bad. And her inventions of Akatosh may well have saved Tamriel thousands of years down the line, but it doesn't change that she lied when she first made him up.

Akatosh isn't made up. Rather he's an adaption. Much like the Harry Potter / Twighlight / Lord of the Rings films are adaption from the books. They don't follow it to the letter, but focus on what makes a better story.
Actually the best comparison that comes to mind is Iron Man. The original started out in Vietnam, the current one, Afghanistan. It suits the current political situation better. You might call that a lie, but we're dealing in fictional stories anyway.

The Aedra are much the same. They're stories told by entire cultures. These don't change over night and by decree. I suspect that the years that would follow Cyrodiil would slowly pick up elements and mix them into the narrative.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:33 pm

An adaption? I don't really see it as such. An adaption is just another take with some differences, Akatosh seems more than an adaption to me, he was a new being that was similar enough to each group to not make a big stink over.

» Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:29 am

An adaption? I don't really see it as such. An adaption is just another take with some differences, Akatosh seems more than an adaption to me, he was a new being that was similar enough to each group to not make a big stink over.

Perhaps my English is failing me here.

Whats the difference between "similar enough" and "some differences"? Because if Akatosh is similar enough to pass comparison with Alduin and Auriel, then there are only some differences. And if there are only some differences between Akatosh, Alduin and Auriel, then they are similar enough.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:28 pm

Nah your fine, iI'm just being unrealistically nitpicky

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:49 pm

All this stuff is available in the Imperial Library...

The Amulet of kings

Author: Wenengrus Monhona
In the first years of the First Era, a powerful race of Elves called the Ayleids, or the Heartland High Elves, ruled central Tamriel with an iron hand. The high and haughty Ayleids relied on their patrons, the treacherous Daedra Lords, to provide armies of daedra and dead spirits; with these fearless magical armies, the Ayleids preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim.

On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils, sought the aid of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, and ruler of the noble Aedra. Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragons, and made a Covenant that so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion, and to deny the armies of daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids.

In token of this Covenant, Akatosh gave to Alessia and her descendants the Amulet of Kings and the Eternal Dragonfires of the Imperial City. Thus does Alessia become the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings. The gem is the Red Diamond in the middle of the Amulet. This is the Symbol of the Empire and later taken as the symbol of the Septim line. It is surrounded by eight other gems, one for each of the divines.

So long as the Empire shall maintain its worship of Akatosh and his kin, and so long as Alessia's heirs shall bear the Amulet of Kings, Akatosh and his divine kin maintain a strong barrier between Tamriel and Oblivion, so that mortal man need never again fear the devastating summoned hosts of the Daedra Lords.

But if the Empire should slacken in its dedication to the Nine Divines, or if the blood of Alessia's heirs should fail, then shall the barriers between Tamriel and the Daedric realms fall, and Daedra-worshippers might summon lesser Daedra and undead spirits to trouble the races of men.

This story is a lie; there was not an Akatosh at that time. I'm pretty sure I read some where that Alessia asked Kyne for help, and a Man Bull, and T800 showed up. :biggrin:

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:44 pm

Huh, Prow, I thought the point of the Dragon Break was that they wanted to make Akatosh the only "real" one, because Akatosh was the pro-human mix up of Alduin/Auri-El's traits with some of Shezzar's human-friendly things, minus all the bloodshed and elf-killing but he was still made up later, by a human, and based on the original Time-As-Destroyer aspect, and then having Akatosh and Auri-El being a little too distinct for a while.

I suppose adaptation may be as good a word as a remake, if we're using fiction words. A sort of updated re-release made to be more appealing to the current audience. Still, though, Akatosh and Alessia were not the main thing holding the dividing lines up. If Uriel and his sons had been assassinated six years before Morrowind instead of six years after, then the Gates would have opened as soon as the Heart was released, at least that's what I've always thought.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:36 pm

Huh, Prow, I thought the point of the Dragon Break was that they wanted to make Akatosh the only "real" one, because Akatosh was the pro-human mix up of Alduin/Auri-El's traits with some of Shezzar's human-friendly things, minus all the bloodshed and elf-killing but he was still made up later, by a human, and based on the original Time-As-Destroyer aspect, and then having Akatosh and Auri-El being a little too distinct for a while.

Aside from the Maruhkati Dragon Break there three other events in which time breaks down. The Warp and the West, the Apotheosis of the Tribunal and Dawn Era. These three have in common that there are always were several gods about.

Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.”- WWYWTDB, Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple

Originally you could derive it from this. The Tribunal knew how to break the dragon.

How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.”- WWYWTDB, Manimacro

This also helps. The Dragon broke is equated tot he dawn era.

The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods. - Intercept

Later on from this. It simply says gods have control over time. Which both the previous bits are hinting at.

So this suggests that during the Maruhkati break there were also gods around*. But which gods could there be? Since the Aedra are all dead and gone it won't be them. The only candidates left are the Selectives. Their motive was to remove elven aspects from Akatosh, but if this proves impossible, then the only thing to do is to remove the Nine and replace them. Cyrodiil could have ended up like Morrowind with Nine God Kings instead of three.

I don't know why it ended but I suspect the situation had become such that they could no longer go on. Perhaps they got caught up in mirror wars.

*Not the strongest form of reasoning but you'd expect some consistency in your story telling.

edit:

Actually the spore dream suggest that an attempt to play the remainder of it was made and resulted in the activation adachimelic holding-tendrils, which sounds like spokes to me. From Vehks teachings we know that these come loose when there are gods about so this may have happened during the MDB. This means that the whole lot evaporated.

I suppose adaptation may be as good a word as a remake, if we're using fiction words. A sort of updated re-release made to be more appealing to the current audience. Still, though, Akatosh and Alessia were not the main thing holding the dividing lines up. If Uriel and his sons had been assassinated six years before Morrowind instead of six years after, then the Gates would have opened as soon as the Heart was released, at least that's what I've always thought.

No indeed. The Empire has been often without an heir.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:59 pm

No indeed. The Empire has been often without an heir.

I'm leaving off the first part because there's really nothing meaningful I can add to that side of the discussion at this point, since all the mutually ireconcilable pasts happening and not happening at once has been talked about before. But to this one I say: exactly! I latch on to the Towers because of White-Gold, but if Alessia's pact was the only thing keeping the lines distinct, then Tamriel would not have had a second era, so that means, by simple logic, there has to be something else moving behind the scenes. Even common Guardsmen found on the Ring Road will say that this assassination "feels" different as the Crisis begins.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:25 am

@TengenToppa: You means like a big (divine) conspiracy theory?

@Lord British: Yeah it svcked. But this isn't youtube. Be cool man.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:10 pm

Dude, Lord British, take a [censored] chill pill. Who made you lore forum king?

Wait...DAMN YOU SHADOW FORUM CLIQUE!!!!

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:42 pm

@TengenToppa: You means like a big (divine) conspiracy theory?

Kind of. I mean a sort of "eigen plot" of a series of only peripherally or in some cases entirely unrelated structures all working towards one purpose, falling one by one in a sequence of unfortunate coincidences. Like I said, if the Imperial Line vanished before Red Tower was deactivated, then nobody would have noticed and the two plots would have been, while still both present, completely separate.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:45 pm

The central discussion we are having here is whether the barriers between Oblivion and Mundus were sealed because of a pact between Alessia and Akatosh.

I think in a lot of ways we are about to find out how seriously gamesas wants us to take this whole "Dragonborn"/line-of-kings/people blessed by the gods diatribe. The events of Oblivion make a lot more sense if you take them through the lens of the Nu-Mantia Intercept (aka, it is all because of the Towers, and most of all Red Tower). However (terrifying thought that it is), if gamesas wants to retcon in "dragonborn-ness" as being the central theme of Elder Scrolls, then that's what they'll do.

God I hope not. Priestess of Lorkhan in Whiterun, and all other potentially deep drivers of lore discussion in Skyrim, save us.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:07 pm

Since it's leaked, I won't link it, but there is lore about this in the Skyrim manual.

I also recall a very early interview with Todd saying that Skyrim's Dragonborn is the last one.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:19 pm

If I remember correct,in order for someone to light the dragonfires,he should be a dragonborn and ALSO hold the amulet of kings,but I might be wrong.
Oblivion gave me this impression.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:24 pm

Oblivion gave me this impression.

It was all a lie.

Plus, being a dragonborn isn't hereditary. If it was, the empire should have crumbled after Tiber's son, let alone the fact that by the time the late Uriel became emperor, the Septim blood had been so diluted, it's not even funny.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:50 pm

Aka ain't no lie.

He's just an amalgam, the chiral marriage of the poles of Anu and Padomay. The Time Dragon with the heart of the Space God.

So really, Perrif didn't lie; She just built a better god.

» Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:13 am

Wasn't referring to Akatosh, just the whole "who can wear the amulet and light the fires" thing.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:41 pm

Wasn't referring to Akatosh, just the whole "who can wear the amulet and light the fires" thing.

Still, I don't think that's so much a lie as it is White Gold's instruction manual being misunderstood.

Lighting the dragonfires essentially grants the ascending emperor a user-profile on the engine of Convention. You don't want just any idiot prisoner getting access to that kinda stuff...

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 pm

Aka ain't no lie.

He's just an amalgam, the chiral marriage of the poles of Anu and Padomay. The Time Dragon with the heart of the Space God.

So really, Perrif didn't lie; She just built a better god.

I heartily agree. Akatosh is every bit as much a distinct aspect as Auriel and Alduin (these two also being separate from each other). Alessia's compromise is a profound act, not just some plaster-over-the-gaps politicking, she attempts that which the Divines themselves could not.

As to Alessia conjuring Akatosh out of thin air; the Nedes had been subject to Ayleid culture and religion for generations it is quite possible that Akatosh existed in at least a nascent sense long before the rebellion. Indeed Pelinal himself seems to be a combination of Akatosh and Shor. Perhaps the Ayleids wrought their own doom from human slavery.

I also recall a very early interview with Todd saying that Skyrim's Dragonborn is the last one.

So… if Skyrim’s Dragonborn is to be the last then either dragonborns can no longer appear or they are no longer necessary after the events of Skyrim. Maybe Alduin won’t just be defeated/delayed perhaps there will be another form of compact with the gods. This could also mean that stopping Alduin and preserving the current kalpa is what dragonborns have always been needed for. Reman defeats the dragon riding Akaviri. Tiber defeats the Thalmor of his era.

“Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.
Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.”

Though there have been individuals with dragon like qualities before (Ysgramor, Wulfharth) is there a greater link between Dragonborns (Reman, Tiber) and Akatosh? Is the “joined blood” the difference between Shezzarine and Dragonborn?

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:29 pm

Though there have been individuals with dragon like qualities before (Ysgramor, Wulfharth) is there a greater link between Dragonborns (Reman, Tiber) and Akatosh? Is the “joined blood” the difference between Shezzarine and Dragonborn?

"Joined Blood" is a mystical compact between Alessia and Akatosh which died with the passing of Martin Septim.

Heirs to this "Joined Blood" could lose that inheritance if they were not faithful to Akatosh and the Nine

A Dragonborn frefers to a type of soul. You cannot lose your soul no matter what you do...

A Shezzarine is an Avatar. An incarnation of the deity Lorkhan. Avatars know who they are from the start and why they are in the world. Sometimes they are ressurected from ashes after death depending on what the deity wants them to do.

Three different concepts....