Pretty much as title. I don't know enough about the Dragonfires or status of dragonborn to speculate, but if Skyrim's Dovahkiin had been aware of his status in 3E433 (an elder elf Dovahkiin in 4E200 could have easily been alive during the time of Oblivion), could he have saved Martin a lot of bother and gone to relight the Dragonfires? Would he have needed the Amulet of Kings?

So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years.
- Trials of St. Alessia.

Alessia is full of crap, the Dragonfires were instituted by Remen and is nothing but a symbolic act.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold ye tongue. Alessia is Saint! :wink_smile:

I would have thought the CoC would have been able to light the Dragonfires, but that whole deal about the AoK falling off my neck makes me think otherwise. Same goes for Dovahkiin, but the dragon blood might make a difference.

The Saint of Crap I tell ya what! I bet one of the beggers could light the Dragonfires given a torch.

I don't think she is the Saint of Malacath. Yes, a begger may have lit a fire, but to summon an avatar of Akatosh a dragonborn was needed, imho.

This would imply two things:
1.) Alessia's pact was worth a damn.

2.) Martin was a dragonborn, or had dragonblood at least. I don't know if the two are even different.

Of cource Alessia's pact was worth a damn, because everyone believed it was worth a damn. Unless I completely misunderstand how this works, what the people believe is what is. So if everyone believed that the Amulet of King's represented this pact and that Alessia had some deal with Akatosh (who's a big phoney anyway) then it became so through their belief. The Dragonfires on the other hand just seem like something thrown in later times, as the Dragonfires were post Alessia in Remen's time. Theres no way they could have any real bearing on the pact.

As for Martin, perhpase he was a Dragonborn. Afterall man and mer are but a constant reincarnation, so its possible Sean Bean Martin was blessed with the soul of a Dragon.

So what makes Alessia full of crap? Her compromising of Nordic and Elven beliefs? I can see how one would think that. I don't buy it but I can imagine how somebody else would.

Sean Bean is going to be typecast if he doesn't watch his step. What happened to you Trevelyan? "For England James?"

Of course thats why she's full of it. She created a whole new pantheon of God's that were nothing more than he sly politicking way of appeasing those who worshiped the elven God's and her Nordic strong hand back in Skyrim. She fooled everyone into believing she had some divine pack with the God's (though she may have actually had something with Lorkhan) when in fact she had diddly. She was a great politician and leader, no doubt, but she's still full of it and only venerated because in this world if everyone believes in your lies they become true.

OT: The point being, the Dragonfires are not really connected with anything I don't believe. Theres a big gaping hole in that statement that the dragonfires must be lit by a Dragonborn. Look at the Akiviri Potente.

Being Dragonborn is completely different from being an heir to the covenant between Alessia and Akatosh


Two completely different things. One is a gift from the gods, the other is a pact.


The dragonborn has the soul of a dragon no matter what he does. That is how he was born

An heir to the covenant WILL LOSE his privileges if he stops being faithful to Akatosh. That is why the term "As long as..." is written into that covenant.


Only Tiber Septim is known to have combined the two qualities

How did she fool everyone if she really did have a pact with gods? Or are you saying the mythopoiea created by Alessia is what caused Akatosh to come whip dagon?



I don't doubt you, but the Akaviri Potente never lit the dragonfires to my understanding.

I don't think she had any covenant with the God's until people started believing she had one. Some sources say its Akatosh that was at her bed side when she died, others Lorkhan, but it was Akatosh who intervened against Dagon which makes me think perhpase he didn't have anything to do with her. So yeah, I'm saying the mythopeia is what caused Akatosh to come whoop Dagon.

The pact was real and those dragonfires burned for centuries before Mankar Camoran wiped out the known imperial line. The Daedra did not hold off their invasion, they were actively prevented by those barriers.


Do not forget that before Alessia, Deadra were pouring in from Oblivion to help the enemies of Alessia. without the pact which sealed the boundaries btw Oblivion and Tamriel, humans will still be enslaved today.

The pact may have been made real, but given Akatosh didn't come into existence until she made him up I don't see how she could have made a pact with something thats not there. The Dragonfires had to be re-lite with each new Emperor, they didn't burn continuously.

What if it was Lorkhan that helped her create this pact?

Then woe be to Lorkhan, for his aid was given to a make believe mesh up between the God Who Eats all and the one who supposedly had his heart ripped out tied it to an arrow. I would like it to have been Lorkhan, it would make sense given his tendency to show up and help protect his creation.

The nine divines of Cyrodill including Akatosh were formed as a result of political compromise between the Nords and Aylieds. In a mythopoeic cosmos, this means Auri'el and Lorkhan were forced to play nice.... AND all this happened long before Alessia was on her deathbed.


The pact with Akatosh happened on Saint Alessia's deathbed. Lorkhan is said to have co-operated with Akatosh in making this pact.


Remember this pact was to ensure humans would never be threatened again by keeping the boundaries between Oblivion and Mundus sealed. It makes sense that Lorkhan who is a champion of man would be very supportive of the arrangement

Right, my point all together being that she made all this stuff up. Sure its real, but at one point it was just a pack of lies used to unite her people and appease the Nords.

Uh..pretty much what Lord Tidus said.

Also to note, Alessia's empire did fall, but there was no daedric invasion of [censored] flying everywhere. Same deal when Reman III was assassinated. The whole Dragon Fires, and "Only those of dragon blood could wear the amulet" is mostly full of [censored].

As Lord Tidus said, it was a ritual made up by Reman. With the dragon blood bit, that's just imperial propaganda. Anyone who has the will and drive to be king gets to wear it. [censored], I bet even Gortwag could have worn it and performed Reman's worthless ritual. But no, the Blades are not very well read it seems. Hell, there was even a point when the empire was ruled by a dunmer empress, with no semblance of relation with the Septim line. She was also one of thee most successful rulers of the Septim Empire.

In essence, Alessia is full of [censored] and a politician, Reman made [censored] up because he could, and almost everything about the Septims seems to have been a giant lie, save for what the Arcturian Heresy says.

*high five*

The Holy Crusade of unearthing the lies of the Cyrodiilic Empires continues!

All this stuff is available in the Imperial Library...


The Amulet of kings

Author: Wenengrus Monhona
In the first years of the First Era, a powerful race of Elves called the Ayleids, or the Heartland High Elves, ruled central Tamriel with an iron hand. The high and haughty Ayleids relied on their patrons, the treacherous Daedra Lords, to provide armies of daedra and dead spirits; with these fearless magical armies, the Ayleids preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim.

On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils, sought the aid of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, and ruler of the noble Aedra. Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragons, and made a Covenant that so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion, and to deny the armies of daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids.

In token of this Covenant, Akatosh gave to Alessia and her descendants the Amulet of Kings and the Eternal Dragonfires of the Imperial City. Thus does Alessia become the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings. The gem is the Red Diamond in the middle of the Amulet. This is the Symbol of the Empire and later taken as the symbol of the Septim line. It is surrounded by eight other gems, one for each of the divines.

So long as the Empire shall maintain its worship of Akatosh and his kin, and so long as Alessia's heirs shall bear the Amulet of Kings, Akatosh and his divine kin maintain a strong barrier between Tamriel and Oblivion, so that mortal man need never again fear the devastating summoned hosts of the Daedra Lords.

But if the Empire should slacken in its dedication to the Nine Divines, or if the blood of Alessia's heirs should fail, then shall the barriers between Tamriel and the Daedric realms fall, and Daedra-worshippers might summon lesser Daedra and undead spirits to trouble the races of men.

Forgive me, I don't guess I see your point? because its written doesn't make it fact.

Imperial propaganda

Why would you make such a statement if you have no basis anywhere for what you are talking about?


Please can you go ahead and show us where your information has come from?

What are you referring too Vilnii? The basis is in the holes throughout the propaganda itself. Theirs simply too many inconsistencies within the Empire to ignore.

Read the history of the empires. Too much inconsistency in that book.

And Alessia's politicking came from http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-shezarr-and-divines, which doesn't read like a lofty imperial propaganda piece. She was stuck between a rock and a hard place, as most of humans of Cyrodiil had been brainwashed like hell by the Aleyids to worship the merrish pantheon and forcing the nordic pantheon would piss them off. On the other hand, if she continued to allow the merrish pantheon, the nords surely would have forced them, at best.