Not every province is organized the same as Morrowind is. Nor can their politics be expected to be as dynamic as Morrowind's. Especially considering that only someone who can wear the Amulet of Kings could be accepted as a candidate for the throne, given the threat from Oblivion.

But hey, I'm entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to yours.

Curious, though- is it acceptable, in your opinion, to set a game in the capital of a continent-wide empire during a period of strife and crisis and not create a politically dynamic situation, despite the fact that every single (Yes, every single and I defy you to find an exception) mention of said capital involves dynamic politics?

Especially considering that a wide variety of people can wear the Amulet (like the BAD GUY!!!!1), yet the design team is too disjointed to take this into account even when its better half is aware of this politically dynamic little detail.

First of all, Cyrodiil does not have a regional leader, it has an Emperor who rules all of Tamriel. The Emperor must be chosen by the Elder Council. As for intrigue, the threat from Oblivion means that nobody wants to risk the empire breaking up into infighting while a bunch of immortal daedra wish to kill them all. Finally, also because of the Oblivion Crisis, the only hope for Tamriel is that somebody with the Amulet of Kings lights the Dragonfires and stops the invasion, which would also cement their place as the new Emperor. And unfortunately, not a lot of people can wear the Amulet, but nothing short of that will suffice.


Most of the people who know about it probably didn't know that it could be worn by non-Septims in this day and age. How would they know, ever since Tiber Septim recovered the Amulet, it's only been able to be worn by Septim Emperors?

You mean it's only been worn by a Septim Emperor twice, because the throne passed through his brother, which everyone knows. And Talos wasn't related to the Alessian or Reman bloodlines, which everyone knows.

His brother was still a blood relative, apparently that works.

As for the Alessian and Reman Bloodlines, it is true that they wore the Amulet, but they were long gone when Tiber Septim received his vision from Akatosh.

Yes and if history shows anything government body that involves a large group of people with various interests can be manipulated. But what was that even a reply too?



I've seen nobody express such sentiment. Show me a source.



A Brief History of the Empire isn't exactly obscure knowledge.

Um, wut.

Your post is too wrong to sort out. Explain yourself.

Bribing one person is one thing. Manipulating the entire Elder Council, especially when the Amulet and Dragonfires are of critical importance to Tamriel, is not nearly as easy.


I believe that it was one of the countesses that mentioned that this crisis has given Cyrodiil the chance to unite against the Daedra. Aside from that, it's more reasonable than people fighting over the throne while the Daedra are destroying the cities and invading the lands. Kvatch was proof of the danger that Cyrodiil was facing. When a greater threat surfaces, those who would normally be enemies often band together.


It doesn't explain the Amulet of Kings. Heck, it didn't even mention it.


It's no more wrong than your previous post. Blood relatives of the Emperor seem to be able to wear the amulet with no problem, but it also appears that the Emperor may be able to designate an heir who thereafter could wear the Amulet. But the last emperor appointed no such non-relative, and his sons, save for Martin, were killed. Not much else to do than to find Martin.

You don't seem to understand that my post is backed up by lore and developers (some even still with Bethesda!), and yours isn't. Thus, yours is wrong, or more wrong, if you want to play it that way.

What vision to Tiber Septim from Akatosh?

You're deliberately obfuscating again. And your crusade to give Oblivion it's fair shake because the forum is so insidiously pro-Morrowind is doomed because you won't admit that Oblivion's most obviously flawed feature is a weakness.

It's mentioned http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor. I believe it is also may be mentioned by Jauffre.

That still doesn't make this quote relevant.



Of course the Remans are dead- Talos took the Amulet from their tomb. People still know that they weren't related.

Akatosh was the one who allowed him to wear it. It was something similar to a Mandate of Heaven.

You don't have to bribe. Intimidate, peer pressure, assassination, threat of assassination, promise of wealth, appeals to justice, popular opinion. Or if you must, march the centurions into the Senate. Especially because the grave situation requires a strong Emperor immediatly.



C'mon show me something then.



It shows you don't have to be a Septim to be Emperor.




Yes, never mind that any mention of Akatosh is absent in the Battle of Sancre Tor, Mankar Camoran was wearing the Amulet of Kings! Can't say that Akatosh is very picky.

Source? The Sancre Tor book says that his attack was divinely inspired, but we had a president who said the same thing, and Talos has lied before. Jauffre has nothing to say on the subject that I can find, and he's an idiot besides.

Of the competing stories about Talos, none of them really suggest that one particular divine picked him because he was so virtuous or something. That wouldn't be giving the man much credit, either.

The grave situation requires an Emperor who can light the Dragonfires.


Let's see. The counts all will send guard(s) to aid Bruma when you close the Oblivion Gates threatening each city. Cyrodiil isn't fighting itself, and there isn't much intrigue. Whatever the case, it's a much better explanation than "TES IV was lousy".



It shows that adoption of heirs into the Septims works.


It seems more likely than not that he was telling the truth. He not only found and was able to wear the Amulet, but knew what to do with it.



http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia gives some information on it. Akatosh seems to make pacts with people who are able to unite the region.

The excuse makes for a lousy story and a boring setting. It gets you either way.

Like Mankar Camoran?

Which it seems. Only one person can't.

That's how it works. History has played the scenario out again and again. In some cases, already warring factions even stop fighting to fight a larger threat.


There's lots of theories on how he wore it.

You'd have to cite a few examples here and show that they are indeed completely devoid of politics and people trying to get ahead.



Most of those also make mince meat of the idea that nobody but a Septim can wear the Amulet. The most credible ones even suggest that undertaking the struggle of becoming an Emperor is enough enough to qualify.

I'd like to see the specific theory that you have in mind.

Until then I'd like to conclude that people like to get ahead and the position of Emperor is open for anybody. Because of this an absence of any sort of political upheaval is a dire short coming. The result of this is a lousy story and a boring setting.

Why would Akatosh "tell him what to do with it" when the gem contained several dozen Emperors who knew just as well?

Ignoring for a minute that Trials of St. Alessia is Imperial propaganda... I thought it was Shezarr who chose Alessia? Or wasn't it Kyne? Or Pelinal? And it wasn't like Alessia hadn't already conquered an Empire when she was sainted in the jewel.

I didn't see any politics. aside from some problems in the provinces.

They're not devoid of politics, the normal politics have just been put off during the crises(?) at hand because the matters at hand are more important. For examples, the 13 American colonies united against Great Britain, the USA and USSR united against Germany in World War II, the Chinese Nationalists and Communist stopped fighting to fight the Japanese in World War II, several European nations worked together against France when Napoleon was in power, the German states united against France in the Franco-Prussian War.


My theory is that only those who already has a reasonable claim to the Dragon Throne (either by conquest or by designation by the current ruler), or their descendents, can wear the amulet. Hence why non-Septim heirs designated by the previous Emperor, and why Mankar Camoran could wear it.


That giant dragon wasn't imperial propoganda. The Oblivion Gates opening because both Red and White Gold Towers were deactivated wasn't Imperial Propoganda. Like before, it's more likely correct than incorrect.

So if generally a conflict is not devoid of politics but you saw no politics in Oblivion. That means an important element of the situation was ignored. When creating an setting beyond a structure that holds the main quests this isn't a good thing because now it is as if the main quest never happened.



Great. So we agree anybody trying to be Emperor can be.



Yes, but the critical part, about who gets to wear the Amulet is not correct. This happens to be the one and only thing that the plot rests on.

So I'd like to conclude that people like to get ahead and the position of Emperor is open for anybody. Because of this an absence of any sort of political upheaval is a dire short coming. The result of this is a lousy story and a boring setting. In addition, the main quest rested on a plot point that is not only in conflict with the plot itself but everything we've known so far.

All those situations involved an unbelievably complex and dynamic period of political machinations and strategic jockeying for power and influence, and directly sowed the seeds for the struggles and divisiveness that followed. Your use of the most tumultuous periods of history as an example of why politics cease during a crisis is breathtakingly ill-conceived.

No one said Cyrodiil should have broke out in immediate civil war, it simply should have had a pulse. Or any sense that there existed a single demographic group with vested interests of any kind that conflicted with any other interest. Oh right, the Fighters Guild doesn't like the druggy people.


I said the source was propaganda (it's also religious, by the way), I didn't say it and everything related to it was a fabrication.


Parts of this are slanted, misleading, idealized, or just plain wrong. I don't suppose you'd care to defend it?

I'm not one of those folks that hate every aspect of Oblivion. I actually like the subtle and (somewhat) realistic changes in geography, and I even bought the different looks of the towns. I can even deal with the Marylandization of a supposed jungle province.

And yes, given an invasion from the Daedra (or at least one Daedra, who knows why people weren't trying to make deals with the other 15) it's probable that Cyrodiil would unify. But what differences did the different counties of Cyrodiil put aside to face the common threat? Is there ANY indication in Oblivion that Cyrodiil wasn't always a jolly fantasy land with a bunch of blindly loyal counts and countesses? Do we get any indication that uniting is somehow a big step for these cities?

What actually frightens me about the OB main quest in the extent to which the Septim Empire is apparently a theocracy. Now history has had plenty of rulers with a "mandate of heaven," there's nothing wrong with that, especially in a world where the literal existence of gods is taken for granted. But plenty of divinely appointed rulers have found themselves murdered in their beds by equally "religious" people. What's terrifying about Cyrodiil is that EVERYONE seems to swallow the whole divine right of kings thing. Even in Morrowind, where there were literally gods (or god type beings) walking around, there was plenty of active dissent. If we accept the Oblivion main quest at face value, we have to also accept that the Empire of Tamriel is the most absolutely terrifying and complete theocracy ever devised--from Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Redguard, though, we know that's just not the case.

You give the example of WWII, but in WWII not everyone went with the Allies. In OB, couldn't the Daedra have convinced some city or another to fight on their side? (Especially since the Dadera aren't b/w when it comes to morality) With a collapse of central power, any number of political things, large and small, naturally happen. Instead everyone sat there, waiting for the next divinely chosen Emperor to come and save them. To me, that just seems silly.

This is just a thing with fantasy. In most (?) fantasy settings the universe really is shaped around a social order.

Whereas reality has a well known liberal bias.