What politics are there to observe? The counts are more worried about their own towns ending up like Kvatch, and the Elder Council is more worried about the troubles in the provinces. They got other matters that require immediate attention. And the Elder Council meets behind closed doors and it's actions apparently don't have much effect on Cyrodiil.



It takes much more than trying, it takes actually having a shot at becoming the ruler of Cyrodiil. The idea seems to be that if there's an actual likelihood of you becoming the ruler of Cyrodiil, the Amulet will work. In theory it's possible that Ocato might have been able to wear it, but since the Amulet was just as the Emperor's final legitimate heir was found, this wasn't an issue.



The problem is, just as a huge vacuum of power opens up, the people in this case are threatened with annihilation. Kvatch was destroyed with impunity overnight. And as I've said before, the Elder Council is more concerned with the provinces than Cyrodiil, and the counts are more worried about their cities going the way of Kvatch.


And large parts of it are right. No heir, the Oblivion gates open. The Reman Empire was spared from this because Red Tower had been activated. Not to mention it allowed for the appearance of Akatosh.

But really, I don't understand, why is it acceptable to hate Oblivion but it isn't acceptable to have a positive opinion of the game?

So every single count did nothing except send half their garrison on a fool's errand to the North? That doesn't sound likely. So there wasn't a single Legion in the home province? That's a laughable excuse worthy of the Levitation Act. So the guilds were too scared to conduct their usual business?


So you're agreeing with me? Because you're no contradicting me.


I don't hate Oblivion.

It's acceptable to criticize for it's faults, but it should be pretty obvious why it isn't popular to ignore, explain away, quibble over, and apologize for it's faults instead of focusing on its merits. You don't hear Morrowind fans vigorously defending the game's texture detail and breathless action, do you?

1. Not a fool's errand, it was quite important. And they only sent a few guards from their garrisons. With the immediate danger to the cities gone, the counts and countesses could assist in aiding Bruma, which was revealed to be the Mythic Dawn's next target.
2. There was a Legion garrison in Cyrodiil, it was in the Prison District at the Imperial City. In addition, the there are Legion horseman and foresters patrolling the roads and woods in certain areas.
3. The guilds were conducting their usual business, although the Fighters Guild had lost some of its business to the Blackwood Company.



I prefer to find in-game explanations for the perceived weaknesses instead of just calling it a game fault. It's a more lore-oriented solution. And a more optimistic solution.

1. If the local rulers were so terrified that their cities would be destroyed that they suspended all political activity and policy goals, wouldn't they be too terrified to weaken their own defenses for altruistic motives? Who cares about Bruma?
2. A "legion" too small to defend Bruma- the responsibility of the legion, leaving it to the ragtag efforts of a few cops and bodyguards. Right.
3. The guilds had no political business- just quests to give to the player. I thought you claimed that this is only because of the Oblivion Crisis.

And why would no one engage in political or economic activity once the Crisis is over and the throne is open?


If that is how you address weaknesses in the game, then how come we never hear your opinions on the disappearance of several magical and martial disciplines? Or a treatise on the Nords who brought the English language to Tamriel's shores? Or an anolysis of how Cyrodiil's tiny size compared to High Rock affects geopolitics? Or the steadily improving eyesight of Tamriel's population that allows them to view their world in crisper detail?

Never the less, I would like to hear those explanations. In a humorous fashion and out of the context of this discussion, they've always proven to be great amusemant.

1. With the local gates closed, the counts could rest a bit easier knowing their towns were safe for the time. And they know that as long as Bruma is being targeted for destruction, then their towns are not; likewise, if Bruma gets destroyed, then there's no telling who's city will be next.
2. Bruma isn't the Legion's responsiblity, its the Bruma Guard's responsibility. It seems the Elder Council sees the Legion as better used keeping an Imperial presence in foreign provinces.
3. They have internal politics, but like the guilds in Morrowind, the lack of involvement with the main quest isn't lore-related, but designer choice to keep the guild lines independent of the main quest.


Same reason that you don't see any political changes after you beat Dagoth Ur; the game's story is over for now.


For the same reason that Morrowind never gets denounced for those changes; they're related more to game mechanics than lore.


So let's hear them, those changes were all implemented in Morrowind first.

1. Because the lord of all the Deadlands can\'t attack two places at once? The Crisis was a simultaneous attack all over the continent, and most of the towns had more than one gate outside their walls. The one you were sent to close was an arbitrary choice.
2. So the Legion\'s responsibility is not, in fact, to defend the home province? Interesting theory. It\'s not the responsibility of the Anvil Guard to defend a town on the far side of Cyrodiil.
3. The topic was all politics, no the MQ. You claimed that the MQ stifled all activity. That doesn\'t explain the Guilds.


To return to the original point: Morrowind was a politically active environment at all points during the game. Oblivion never was.

No one in their right mind actually makes those charges! You just claim that they should the issues should be explained by bad fanon.

1. If the Daedra could simultaneously attack several towns with siege crawlers, they would have done so. Heck, they weren't even actively besieging most of the towns.
2. The Legion does what the Elder Council tells it to do. And Cyrodiil is the only province that doesn't have to worry about local forces rebelling against the Imperial presence. Furthermore, the portion of the Legion that was in other provinces was there before the Emperor was killed and before the Oblivion gates opened. And the reason that they weren't withdrawn is because the Elder Council is more concerned with the provinces. It's their call, not yours or mine.
3. As I said before, the Imperial Guilds were made, in both games, to be independent of the main quest plot. It was a deliberate choice to keep the game non-linear. And really, you weren't in much of a position in TES IV to know a lot of what's going on with the Elder Council.


Morrowind's politics ceased after the main quest was over. As did Tribunal's.


So what is being in one's right mind? Bias of Morrowind over Oblivion? Or ignorance of the existence of those changes from Daggerfall to Morrowind?

Yes, what are you waiting for. Make us laugh.

Owh wait...

1.That's not true. The Daedra attacked every province, if you hear the rumors. They clearly had multiple siege crawlers. I don't know what's sillier: suggesting that the god capable of destroying the universe can only attack one hamlet at a time, or claiming to know this and be acquainted with his strategy.
2. It's actually Bethesda's call to create such a transparent, illogical situation.
3. Your post is a non sequitur. That's not what I'm talking about.

Um... the quests ran out. The atmosphere and setting of discord and confrontation (that Oblivion lacks) remained the same.

Guess what? Another non sequitur. Unless you're suggesting that Daggerfall didn't have English-speaking NPCs.

1. The cities attacked with siege crawlers were only a small portion of all the cities in Tamriel, used for only important targets. Even daedra princes have limits to their military resources.
2. Don't tell me that it's out of place for some politicians to make some choices denounced as stupid. Especially when they're not elected.
3. The guilds were made to have nothing to do with the Oblivion Crisis. They do, however, have their own internal politics, which are made evident as one progresses in their quests.


That's because Morrowind is and has always been in discord due to reasons not related to Dagoth Ur.


It had language skills connected to creatures, one of which was later made a playable race. And I don't remember Morrowind having non-English-speaking NPC's, even if they presumably knew another language.

Don't avoid the question; why were those changes acceptable when implemented in Morrowind but not in Oblivion?

You only closed one gate. One of the between two and five gates that surround most cities. What ever argument you were holding on #1, it's moot.



We're talking about lore here, not game play mechanics. Don't try to change the subject.

You haven't actually provided any solid explanation (and by solid I mean, backed up with something other then your own made up explanations) for a lack of politics in Cyrodiil. The examples of historical events similar to the Oblivion crisis I asked for earlier are actually rife with politics.

The discussion about the Amulet limiting the possible people who could be come Emperor also show that anybody who tried can be Emperor. Again, not a reason to forgo political strife. To the contrary even.

Now the last discussion about the Counts has shown them to be horribly inconsistent if we were to follow your reasoning that they were too afraid to do something until you closed a single one of the many gates around their town.

You seem to be getting down to your usual rub though. That people don't like things about Oblivion but do mind other things about Morrowind. Nevermind that they're unrelated.

The other gates were randomly opened from 90 possible locations. The others weren't meant to menace the town, although some may have been placed a bit too close to the towns.


And you haven't actually provided any solid evidence of a lack of politics in Cyrodiil. Just because you don't see what goes on when the Elder Council is meeting doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Now, some political matters would be put on hold, but others are brought up given the state of Tamriel at the time.


"Trying to be Emperor" isn't enough. You actually have to have a good case as to why you could become Emperor. Like if you're a warlord or a prince or someone designated by the Emperor to be his heir.


It seems a bit hypocritical or inconsistent to dislike some things in Oblivion but to not dislike the same things in Morrowind.

Curious, though- is it acceptable, in your opinion, to set a game in the capital of a continent-wide empire during a period of strife and crisis and not create a politically dynamic situation, despite the fact that every single (Yes, every single and I defy you to find an exception) mention of said capital involves dynamic politics?



You mean, like the absence of any sort of dynamic political structure in the face of a grave an immediate threat to Morrowind if not the whole of Tamriel?

As I said before, we weren't exactly in a position to know what was going on politically. It went on behind closed doors. Just because you don't witness it doesn't mean it isn't happening.


You know what I mean:

Although to get technical, TES III was the game that eliminated language barriers and reduced the scale, not Oblivion.

You imagine them to be happening behind close doors. To everybody else, there is nothing there except for the most minute vestiges.

Now, I am still curious. Is it acceptable, in your opinion, to have a play set in the capital of a continent-wide empire during a period of strife and crisis but act out off-stage, all events, involving the use of intrigue or strategy to obtain a position of power, despite the fact that every single mention of said play involves dynamic politics?



I dislike the absence of something in Oblivion that can be found in Morrowind. and Daggerfall. It is by no means hypocritical or inconsistent. Do you know what you mean?



Would you enjoy a game you couldn't understand what was going on? Or a game where you had to spend actual days to get somewhere without fast travel? You mention practical limitations, but in defence of what exactly? What practical limitation could justify a focus on creating eight-of-each and a neglect of their interaction?

First of all, Ocato assumed the positon of acting ruler of Tamriel. And he has the magical ability to back it up. Second of all, the last Emperor and his known sons were killed under the noses of both the Blades and the Imperial Guard; not a lot of people would want to be the Emperor at the time.



I wasn't referring to that, I was referring to this:



I didn't mind being left out of the loop in Morrowind, and I didn't mind it in Oblivion either.

I just want to know where the Dragoon Legions were, and the colorful banners...

2. So politicians are bad, but video game programmers are infallible? Gotcha.
3. Internal politics? Seriously? Negligible, in my opinion. And negligible in the opinion if just about every other player, Oblivion fans alike. It's just that no one else has the gall to claim that the parts of Oblivion are absent are actually justified creative decisions.



THEY'RE NOT CHARGES BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS AND MORROWIND WAS NO DIFFERENT THAN OBLIVION REGARDING THEM.

I've put that sentence in caps because I'm not sure you've understood a word I've said.

Oblivion pretty much flopped out when it came to politics.

That's my contribution here.

Actually, because the flop was the side effect of other, equally bad choices, it wasn't a flop.

/sarcasm

Oooook.... A little calm?

Have you seen any noble utter that sentiment, have you had to convince anybody of that particular line of reasoning? C'mon now, stop making things up that aren't there.



Which was given in reply to:



Though by finding -you seem to mean, make up - explanations.

The problem with this approach is that you try to explain things that can not be explained in terms of lore. They're simply not related to it. An absence of anything but the vestiges of a political organisation is not caused by lore but by developers. In doing so they left out the otherwise most vibrant aspect of the Imperial City. This approached failed to bring Cyrodiil across as the capital of an Empire. The setting was otherwise just fine for chasing a bastard heir, but from a perspective of lore, this is the least interesting side of the Imperial province.

Yet you seem to insist on being Oblivions apologist. Your solutions are not lore orientated, if you think it is lore to ruin an established setting by an imagined fear induced indecision you are deluding yourself. Oblivion was only one story. The argument that there is no politics in Oblivion isn't a discussion of lore, it's a matter of fact. It's implications are discussion of lore because right now we still don't know anything in more detail about Cyrodiil.

This puts your explanations in the same category as explanations to explain different spells between games, different vision distances, all explanations that try to explain something with lore that isn't caused by lore.
Now to differentiate this from your argument that it happened in a place the player couldn't observe, behind closed doors -an argument that reminds me of invisible pink unicorns- when it comes to the game Oblivion it is the same has not having any politics. It is the game Oblivion that gets haranged for this lack.

So if you want to argue against the idea that a game set in the heart of the Empire should forgo politics in favour of a hero storyline, make your arguments on what ever ideas you like but don't pretend it can be explained by lore.

Who would know? The only people that would know would be the Elder Council and their associates. Although Marius Caro does mention that they're more concerned about the provinces than the Empire. No need to assume the worst about not seeing something


Some things happen behind closed doors. Morrowind's politics were more noticeable because they either were common knowledge or part of a quest or questline. It's not that the politics in Cyrodiil wasn't there, it's that it wasn't seen in the game. There's no real need to assume the worst about it.


And you insist on being Oblivion's condemner. Why are you so pessimistic about Oblivion? I mean, nobody complains about how Nolius Atrius, the corrupt Balmora magistrate, is never in the game. Try to be more optimistic about what you don't get to see.


And you don't find any fault in how the NPC's in Morrowind never do anything but stand around, never doing anything? :rolleyes:


2. It's a better assumption to pin it on the fictional politicians than on the defs. And really, since when have devs been considered more faulted than politicians?
3. No need to be a pessimist regarding TES IV. Unless, of course, you're also equally cynical for all of Morrowind's flaws.


Oh, and Lady Olivia, if you got something to say regarding my arguments, I would suggest actually tell it to me here directly.

Pessimism and optimism usually refer to expectations of what will happen in the future. The proper adjectives to use hear would be words like 'logical' and 'honest.'

I don't care about Morrowind's flaws because they're the kinds of flaws I don't care about.

I should hope that most politicians are better at their jobs than video game developers. They run the world, after all, and devote most of their time to political matters, whereas Bethesda left out those concerns because they didn't think it was an important thing for an RPG to have.

Discussing other forums is against the rules.