Maybe this could be answered if I looked hard enough to find a complete list of dragon breaks - yet I couldn't.

So,the ones I did find seemed to include somewhere along the lines someone who becomes a god - is this the sole reason for the dragon break?Sure,sources say the gods interfere and whatnot,but is this atleast what starts them?

A dragon break is when you break Akatosh and time becomes very loose (Akatosh = time). What happened in the Warp in the West was a result of a dragon break. It isn't the only way to ascend, but it may cause a dragon break as a side-effect, as with Vivec one may argue.

Read "The Dragon Break Re-examined". I don't think an actual dragon break is possible.

As for the Warp in the West, I don't know if it was a full-blown Dragon Break. A true one would leave time broken with reality soon following suit, and the Warp in the West seemed to heal itself with Numidium being svcked into Aetherius.

No, dragon breaks happen, because Akatosh broke. That is what a dragon break is, Akatosh being broken. The thing is, he has Jills to fix him all up all (mostly) better. The thing is, if there were no Jills, then, heh, have fun.

I used to buy into the original Dragon Break story, but it makes more sense that the 1008 or however years lost were due to poor Alessian Order bookkeeping.

Also, what are Jills again? I remember it being discussed on the forums a while back, but I can't recall what they were.

You know we had that book in the third area? It's referring to the third era in the past tense. Time getting lost also happened during the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-warp-west. Only a day this time but it shows that a Dragon Break isn't just nothing.

The Jills come from the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept. Which says as much as: "The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods."

A Dragon Break is a return to that time, typically with the instigators ordering the events in time. Which is not surprising as all events leading up to a Dragon Break are associated with apotheosis.

Okay,so maybe ascension doesn't cause a true dragon break,but is Mannimarco becoming the God of worms the initial reason the Warp in the West started?

No, that was just 1 outcome of the Warp of the West. The WotW would still have happened, even without Mannimarco becoming a god. The whole Warp of the West came because the Numidium was reactivated and, somehow, 8 different groups got a hold of a Numidium at the exact same time, when there is really only supposed to be 1. You have the orsimer, Sentinel, Wayrest, and Daggerfall who used it to defeat all the kingdom around them for power and land, The Blades to subdue the kingdoms, Mannimarco to become a god from that point on (all points before are still him being a mortal and a lich), the Underking to rejoin with his soul and finally die, and the player, who gets stepped on. If all events were to happen as such, it'd be a giant cluster poop. Because of that, Akatosh broke and things became screwy (8 Numidiums when there should only be 1). To fix this, the Jills took some duct tape and glue to patch up ol' Akatosh there, and made the events end with all groups receiving Giant Stompy Bot, but those kingdoms who had it were not destroyed and incorporated those that were to their lands, the orsimer got some of their own land carved out, the kingdoms were subdued to a peace, the Underking got his soul back, Mannimarco became a god, and the player was stepped on (but this you can have your own leeway if you so wish as there could have been 7 other agents).

Now, what you may be thinking is V-man. I think someone here said when the Tribunal became gods, Vivec changed it so that he was a god at all points in hisher life, making it so he was not mortal from all points before ascension (different from Mannimarco who remains mortal for all events prior to ascension). To do this, Vivec broke Akatosh, edited his past so that he was always a god, instead of a mortal becoming a god.

The initial break-point in time occurred when the Agent received the Totem of Tiber Septim. So, from a linear point of view, I'd say no. But if Mannimarco's ascension caused ripples in time to extend backward to that point, then it's possible.

What I believe was probably more accurate is that the activation of Numidium caused it, since we only have eight possible permutations through the Warp in the West (that we are aware of), all revolving around who activated it. In order to resolve the causality problems of linear time forking at a moment for all choices to occur AFTER one choice has been made, the Breaking extended backward to the point where the choices were presented so a paradox is averted.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dragon Break everyone actually remembers never had anyone actually ascend, right?

Eh...what are you trying to say on the bottom sentence, MD?

I assume he's referring to the Dragon Break in "Where Were You When...", i.e. the Tower dancers.

Because his post is about the Warp, I assume that's what the last sentence is about. It doesn't matter, since all Dragon Breaks are truly one.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-book-hours-concerning-dragon-break

So why don't people worship the Jills? Are they invited to Sanguine's parties? Do they also repair Peryite?

I'd bloody damn well say it does,



...try the Brass God, all Eight of them, remember the intercept, gods ... control ... at every time adament ...



...which of course didn't so much ascend as was powered on.



Do you worship angels? Or just believe in them?

---

If anybody is still confused try the following:

1) What are the phenomena of a Dragon Broke?
2) When and how often do these phenomena appear in history?
3) What elements are common to all these historic events?

I wouldn't compare a Jill to an angel, but I take it from your answer that you mean "I think they just don't". If people worship Almalexia of all people, or Sithis which is apparently nothingness, you'd have to agree it makes much more sense to worship a jill.

Time in the tes series is given a picture per say, but it isn't the one that chooses to allow/deny. The Jills are masters of time and fate, nannies of the dragon.

Ah no, you're reading to much into my comment. I was thinking of this line from the intercept: "Then will mighty Akatosh reply, wherein the petitioner must be demand full freedom! To speak in the fires of time is to render the speaker a subject of the matron Jills, those servants of the Dragon that mend minutes without volunteer. Only through freedom can true words remain untouched." What I meant to say was that the Jills seem to be in the same relation that angels have to god. Divine servants that unerringly execute their task and nothing more. Except when they don't. Or to draw from Inception, the unconscious thoughts of the Dragon that keeps time straight, like his breathing.

But then we also have to consider do people actually know that they exist? (The Jills).

If they do, then yes they could be worshipped.

Sorry I'm a bit rusty, and very sleepy.

Oh. Forgot what I just said.

Hmm... why did I never pick up on that?

It reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide, with books being shot back in time.

Ugg, thanks for posting that, Proweler. Don't you just love how MK makes up new vocabulary for every new thing he writes?

By the way, why does he say, "built the remaining towers during the Merethic: White-Gold, Crystal-like-Law, Orichalc, Green-Sap, Walk-Brass, Snow Throat, and on and on"

Numidium was built during the Merethic?

Also, what exactly happened to Ur-Tower and First Stone? The Heart of Lorkhan is the Second Stone, correct? Was Ada-Mantia planted into Nirn before Lorkhan's Divine Spark was removed and fell to the ground?

Maybe in "the" dragon break people acended; there were supposedly 8 who danced on the tower; they could all have mantled Aedra.

Ya; The convention occured in Adamantium Tower and that was when they Betrayed Shor.

Okay, after having read hopefully everything pertaining to the Dragon Break, I'm fully convinced of its existence.

Now on to what you just said. Why do you say they betrayed "Shor." I thought he only became Shor after his heart was ripped out.

Sorry for being glib. I sometimes assume everyone understands me all the time. I meant the Marukhati dragon break.

How many Dragon Breaks were there besidesthe Dragon Break and the Warp in the West.

I have a theory that they're Tower related. The Towers, mainly Ada-Mantia and Red-Tower are responsible for the preservance of time, and reality by extention. By removing a Tower, the flow of time becomes temporarily changed. In the case of Walk-Brass, the distortion in time caused multiple realities to collide in one possipoint. With the Dragon Break, the Marukhati reenacted the Convention and created a Tower with no Stone that was only temporary and not meant to persist. They used that to manipulate the spokes of the Wheel and focused Aurbis energy to dis-mantle Akatosh and Auri-El into two, seperate entities. I think the Dragon Break was caused by the improper creation of a Tower just as much as their fooling with Akatosh. The Towers are the fixed anchors in time, and by adding one or taking one away, Nirn changes.

The only flaw with that theory is that there wasn't a Dragon Break after the destruction of the Heart of Lorkhan.

The dissolving Towers are symptom of Auriel losing his person to Lorkhan, not the cause. Same event, different world views. The Dragon Breaks are caused via transcendence, and this always involves leaping from a Tower. They do irreversible damage to the ego of Auriel.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/shor-son-shor

He is Shor even before hi betrayal.