Creating new Worldspaces.......how to get around the broken : V

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:36 am

Seeing as the http://www.creationkit.com/Heightmap_Editing is getting to the size limit, I thought I'd start a new one and put all the information we can up with together into one place:

If one of the developers see this! The LOD generator in the CK is completely broken and useless to us, it does not create LOD texture files.
For the moment now though we have some work-around by hex editing and using other programs.

EDIT: see this post for my anolysis of the LOD Texture Generator and why it is broken: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345519-creating-new-worldspaceshow-to-get-around-the-broken-ck-features/page__view__findpost__p__20288670

Creating a Worldspace:
Create your worldspace in the worldspace menu....its pretty easy. Fill in the data as needed (look at other worldspaces for what is required) and refer to the wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/World_Spaces

Heightmaps:

The Heightmap editor was originally built for Oblivion as a tool to make large-scale changes to the terrain of a worldspace. Since Oblivion, Bethesda Game Studios has moved towards using third-party applications (such as Photoshop) to generate and edit a grayscale image which is then imported into the Creation Kit via the Heightmap Editor. From there, the BGS team makes fine adjustments by directly editing Landscape on a per-cell basis.

Wiki: http://www.creationkit.com/Heightmap_Editing

Most people have only had success by creating heightmaps outside of the CK and importing in the .RAW image/s. The .raw image represents a Quad which is 32x32 cells. THe default viewing size for a quad in the CK is 4 on the screen and the position 0,0 of the map is location at the center point between quad; -1_0, 0_0, -1_-1, 0_-1. So if you want to build around the 0,0 point of your world, you will need 4 quads of heightmap. See this diagram for more infomation: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/images/8/80/Overviewgrid.jpg

To import a .raw, you need to put it in your Skyrim/Data/HeightField Folder (make it if it doesn't exist). It must then be named for whatever quad it is supposed to fill. For my world of 4 quads I imported -1_0.raw, 0_0.raw, -1_-1.raw, 0_-1.raw

.raw files also need special fomratting as per the wiki: Use 1024x1024 16-bit RAW format images with Raw Option settings: Header: 0, Non-interleaved Order, Count: 1, Depth: 16 Bits, Byte Order: IBM PC.

Once you have your files in place, load up your mod iwth the CK, and open it in the heightmap window, go file -> import and a loading bar will start. WHen you get a "File in use error - Waiting" bow come up, click cancel each time. Once complete close the window. Your hieghtmap should be imported, load it in the render window to be sure.

I would also suggest removing the .raw files from the folder then (put them somewhere safe) as it sort of looks like the CK auto-imports them when you open the heightmap editor.

Now remember, this tool is very resource intensive and if your computer isnt fairly beefy expect crashes. A soon as you can, save your mod. I am able to (though I hear others just get crashing) to use the other tools in the hieghtmap and then click 'save' to save my changes. However I am running an i7 (2600k) with 8 Gigs of RAM, less hardware may not be able to handle it.

Regions:
I still have no idea how to make regions, but I've heard it is nearly the same as past games. I was linked to this tutorial and it is the most detailed I've seen.
http://www.truancyfactory.com/tutorials/fallout3/fallout_regions.html

I've also found the GECK WIki to be useful:
http://geck.gamesas.com/index.php/Regions

Creating the LOD:
This is where it gets tricky. The CK's built in LOD generator is broken, it does not make the textures for the LOD meshes. It will also destroy your heightmap if you try to generate LOD textures and your working in an .esp.

For that reason, Maegfaer has written this guide to using Oscape (third party LOD generation tool: http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=41165) to create the LOD.

To generate LOD with Oscape:

1. Make sure your heightfield ESM (can't be ESP, Oscape won't read ESP worldspaces for some reason) is activated in your mod load order list.
2. Start Oscape, make sure that it's in Skyrim mode (under 'Game').
3. Click Fill.
4. Select your worldspace in the list, check feature-map and surface-map boxes.
5. Browse to desired output folder, doesn't have to be in your Skyrim directory, anywhere will do.
6. Click Extract. If you get an error message that it can't find the worldspace, close Oscape and return to step 2. This always happens for me, second try does work.
7. Wait until it is done, Oscape should automatically switch to the second tab (Preview).
8. Usually all the data here is already correct, it will give you rough view of the RAW file it extracted (don't skip all the previous steps because you already have a RAW file btw, Oscape's is different) and in the tables you can select which area will be generated. Default is everything.
9. Go to the next tab 'Generator'.
10. The first value you should change is 'Target of max. resolution'. Try a value of 728000. Don't ask me details, I don't know all the details how it works, but this is a good value for my map. Higher and it crashes for me.
11. Under that, make sure the 'Meshes', 'Normals' and 'Colors' are enabled.
12. For 'Meshes', disable DirectX and Wavefront.
13. For 'Normals' and 'Colors', disable PNG, PPM and all the resolutions except for 1024 (or if you prefer a different resolution choose that).
14. At the bottom select the output folder, can be anywhere. Click Generate.
15. When it is done, Oscape switches to the 'Installer' tab. Enable all the 'Install' boxes here. At the bottom of the tab browse to your Skyrim Data directory. Click install.
16. When installing the textures, Oscape always gives me errors that it can't convert the .dds files. I always press Retry and then it seems to work (keep holding down Enter if you get thousands of messages).

Worldspace .LOD file
Every worldspace requires a .lod file that says how big it is. To make one you'll need a few things.
1. Make a border region for your territory.
2. Use the World -> Generate Max Height Data for World. Choose "Yes", then "No"
- This tool will make your CK go not responding for a while. When it's done a pop-up will appear, but done click on the CK in this time all you'll crash it.

If you haven't set up a border region yet, or you couldn't use the above method, you can also do it manually by this way Maegfaer found:

LOD display is controlled by *.lod files inside the Data/lodsettings folder. Look in the Meshes BSA for the ones for vanilla worldspaces. Simply copying Tamriel.lod and renaming it to your worldspace will show up LOD.

If your worldspace is larger then Skyrim's thne you can do some hex editing on your file:

It's pretty easy, after LOD generation is finished (or before, it doesn't matter) you do this:

1. Open 'Skyrim - Meshes.BSA' in any BSA supporting application.
2. Extract the file 'lodsettings\tamriel.lod' to 'Skyrim\Data\lodsettings\'
3. Rename 'tamriel.lod' to your worldspace editorID, in your case 'mesago.lod'.
4. Open 'mesoga.lod' in a hex-editor (google it if you don't have one, most of them are free).
5. You'll see a set of numbers, like this: A0FFA0FF000100000400000020000000
6. Change the numbers to this: 00FF00FF000200000400000020000000
7. Save the file.

Then LOD should show up.

00FF (or rather FF00, you gotta read it in reverse) means -256, so the first two values determine the starting cell coordinates of the LOD -256, -256. Then comes the 000200, which means 512, it determines how far LOD will go. So this way the LOD will reach from cells -256,-256 to 255, 255, which is 16x16 quads.

Anyway, I hope I got those hex numbers right. As the world witnessed in this thread, I'm a noob at hex-editing.

So now you should have your worldspace with heightmap and LOD.

Now to my problems:
At the moment of typing this mine still has purple LOD, once i get that fixed I add it to this post, but for others it seems to be working.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:20 am

So, you know how in the heightmap tool, you can 'draw' on it, escentially creating the same effects that are in it? (you know, instead of using Photoshop to do the same thing)

Now, My mod, I wanted to add a fairly good sized island, to the north-east of Solitude.

But, whenever I make the island, and 'save', it does the file in use, crash when completed thing....

Anyone know a way around that?
Mind you, it HAS to be in the Tamerial Worldspace,

I really, really don't want to try to make this island, entirely by hand in that method, as that could easilly take 3 weeks...

Not that I know of. I get the same crash and I, just like you, am trying to make an island. The easiest way by far would be for me to just use the built in editor to quickly make my land. But it crashes on save. I'm not hand designing my 1100 cells, and since I want to avoid learning a new program, I will currently have to make it with the CS and export it for use in the CK. But every change I make to test ingame I'll have to export, copy+paste, and rename. :/

However, for some people like da mage, it doesn't crash on save... It must be an incompatability or something, but I can't think of what it would be.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:54 am

I think I may have a possible reason.

When I save my worldspace it gets into the high 3 Gigs (around 3.8Gig of total computer memory useage) if I try and save the Tamriel worldspace it goes over 4Gig of usage and the CK crashed. Might be it.

EDIT: tried again, reacdhed 3.99Gig before it finished saving and it didn't crash....ill try booting up more prorgams and push the memory as high as I can.

EDIT2: Seems to be saving it now......but that is the first time it has crashed on me....so I dunno.

» Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:41 pm

I think I may have a possible reason.

When I save my worldspace it gets into the high 3 Gigs (around 3.8Gig of total computer memory useage) if I try and save the Tamriel worldspace it goes over 4Gig of usage and the CK crashed. Might be it.

EDIT: tried again, reacdhed 3.99Gig before it finished saving and it didn't crash....ill try booting up more prorgams and push the memory as high as I can.

Ehhh, I donno. For me, right now I'm idling at using 2.01gb. I load up the CK (I dont load Skyrim.esm) I make a world, open the height editor and scribble around. At this point I'm using 2.22gb. I click save, it goes up to 2.23gb and then crashes...

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:05 am

Small correction to the HEX values:

FF00 doesn't mean -255, it means -256 - if you actually want -255, that's FF01.

The "reverse order" you're talking about is more properly called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Little-endian order.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:56 am

Okay guys, Im trying to use the region editor, but have one major issue....

I try to get it to place trees...but no matter how I do it always places them in rows....is there any tips on avoiding having objects placed in rows so much?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:40 pm

Yes that's possible, have you read the manual on the region generator?

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/Regions

Small correction to the HEX values:

FF00 doesn't mean -255, it means -256 - if you actually want -255, that's FF01.

The "reverse order" you're talking about is more properly called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Little-endian order.

Thanks for the correction, like I said in the last line I'm a noob at hex-editing, hehe. Oh well, at least the end-result works!

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:24 pm

Yes that's possible, have you read the manual on the region generator?

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/Regions

That just tells you what each field does, not tips on making good stuff..

I actuallyed opened up Oblivion and found some really good settings for tress etc.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:40 am

Okay guys, Im trying to use the region editor, but have one major issue....

I try to get it to place trees...but no matter how I do it always places them in rows....is there any tips on avoiding having objects placed in rows so much?

try setting the density to about 3.5 the radius to 75 and clustering to 50.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:54 am

for people having trouble getting the lod textures working properly using oscape, try the latest version of Tes4qlod. Also im having trouble with the lod water, the lod water only appears at a very low height out side the worldspace. I have tried changing the lod water height in the CK but it hasnt seemed to have any effect. Any Ideas?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:03 am

try setting the density to about 3.5 the radius to 75 and clustering to 50.

Yep, thats what I did to fix it.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:54 am

for people having trouble getting the lod textures working properly using oscape, try the latest version of Tes4qlod. Also im having trouble with the lod water, the lod water only appears at a very low height out side the worldspace. I have tried changing the lod water height in the CK but it hasnt seemed to have any effect. Any Ideas?

Can you provide a few more instructions? Aka what do you need to do for Skyrim LOD?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:35 pm

Can you provide a few more instructions? Aka what do you need to do for Skyrim LOD?

Tes4qlod can only generate lod textures and normal maps, unfortunately it cant create the actual lod mesh. Running it is very simple, its simply just a matter of instaling it to your data folder, opening it in a command console and typing in "tes4qlod myworldspace myplugin.esp."

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:25 am

Tes4qlod can only generate lod textures and normal maps, unfortunately it cant create the actual lod mesh. Running it is very simple, its simply just a matter of instaling it to your data folder, opening it in a command console and typing in "tes4qlod myworldspace myplugin.esp."

unfortunately it doesn't work for me, since it is looking for the Oblivion textures it gets all confused with the Skyrim textures....but it doesnt fail until it tries to read the .esp, says it is Unable to read entire marker record (29919 bytes) from MyMod.esp into memory.

Have you actually made it work? what were all the steps you did to get it working?

EDIT: What we really need is TES4LODGen updated to Skyrim. That was one tools that was quick and easy ot use in order to make LOD.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:29 am

Just wait for an update on Oscape, I'm sure Ethatron will fix the textures soon.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:35 pm

Just wait for an update on Oscape, I'm sure Ethatron will fix the textures soon.

I'm just investigating around.

I have started building my worldspace with the region editor, LOD is done much later anyway....someone will eventually get a completely working way to make them....hell the CK's generator could still get fixed by the devs.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:10 am

@MaegFaer : Thank you for finding the .lod thing... Genius...

In an other hand i have found something that might help some people ...

With Annwyn i used the -0 option wich was for oblivion, and i offset my map to the center with -x and -y option so the 0,0 cell is the center of my map, i was able to generate full lod and texture in the CK,

if it says that files already exist you have to open the heighmap editor, this is for mesh,
and for texture it's a bit complicated if CK says they already exist, i made a border region of my map,
use the has map option in the tab of the region editor and tick border region... then used the option "Generate Max Height Data for World" select my worldspace wait for the CK to finish... After this texture generation worked.

Also if i use texture and mesh option in the same time in the CK : crash...

The skyrim map has disapeard, only the clouds left and i don't know how to remove them for now.

Hope this will be usefull for somewone.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:44 am

With Annwyn i used the -0 option wich was for oblivion

I don't recommend doing this. It doesn't necessarily hurt, but it might have the potential. It gives your worldspace formID a fixed mod index of 00, which is used by Skyrim.esm. It was necessary for the LOD to show up in Oblivion, but not in Skyrim. I'm not sure how TESAnnwyn chooses a formID for your worldspace if you don't specify one, but it might have the risk to choose a formID that already exists in Skyrim.esm, and duplicate formID's can lead to problems.

» Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:01 pm

@MaegFaer : Thank you for finding the .lod thing... Genius...

In an other hand i have found something that might help some people ...

With Annwyn i used the -0 option wich was for oblivion, and i offset my map to the center with -x and -y option so the 0,0 cell is the center of my map, i was able to generate full lod and texture in the CK,

if it says that files already exist you have to open the heighmap editor, this is for mesh,
and for texture it's a bit complicated if CK says they already exist, i made a border region of my map,
use the has map option in the tab of the region editor and tick border region... then used the option "Generate Max Height Data for World" select my worldspace wait for the CK to finish... After this texture generation worked.

Also if i use texture and mesh option in the same time in the CK : crash...

The skyrim map has disapeard, only the clouds left and i don't know how to remove them for now.

Hope this will be usefull for somewone.

I tried using Generate Max Height Data for World, it did it's thing. However if I then try to save my mod it makes the CK "not responding" and just sits there.....did you have this?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:08 am

@da mage: That tutorial on region generation is the most useful that I know of. But in the end generating regions is a lot of trial and error until you found good settings or know how to get them. Here are some tricks that might help:

1) First have a look on how other regions are set up. I could recommend you regions like Minhiriath, the Westfold, western Forlindon, or the southern part of the Misty Mountains in Oblivion MERP. These are some of the latest regions that we've done in MERP and I think they are among the best ones too. Propably you'll find good examples in other mods too. Just don't take regions from vanilla Oblivion - the setup of these regions is really confusing!

2) Try to follow the setup of existing regions. You will be much faster than if you have to create a new region from scratch.

3) Work in layers: first only generate the textures and grass. If you are content with these add rocks, shrubs, trees and flora step by step.

4) As long as you are looking for the right settings just generate a little area of about 10 cells, but make sure that it contains flat areas as well as some hills. If you use such a small area the generator should be pretty fast and you can experiment with many different settings.

5) Make sure to use the clustering and parent - child functions in order to avoid problems like trees being placed in lines.

I hope this helps a bit.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:42 am

@da mage: That tutorial on region generation is the most useful that I know of. But in the end generating regions is a lot of trial and error until you found good settings or know how to get them. Here are some tricks that might help:

1) First have a look on how other regions are set up. I could recommend you regions like Minhiriath, the Westfold, western Forlindon, or the southern part of the Misty Mountains in Oblivion MERP. These are some of the latest regions that we've done in MERP and I think they are among the best ones too. Propably you'll find good examples in other mods too. Just don't take regions from vanilla Oblivion - the setup of these regions is really confusing!

2) Try to follow the setup of existing regions. You will be much faster than if you have to create a new region from scratch.

3) Work in layers: first only generate the textures and grass. If you are content with these add rocks, shrubs, trees and flora step by step.

4) As long as you are looking for the right settings just generate a little area of about 10 cells, but make sure that it contains flat areas as well as some hills. If you use such a small area the generator should be pretty fast and you can experiment with many different settings.

5) Make sure to use the clustering and parent - child functions in order to avoid problems like trees being placed in lines.

I hope this helps a bit.

Yep, thats basically what I've been doing. I looked up the Oblivion regions to find out what values work on things, and have a small area I've been generating into to test things.

On a note with the LOD....I sort of got it working...but i think I know what I did wrong. If I can get it working I'll update the original post at the top. It is really strange process, but you have to do things exsactly in order and it seems to work.

ALSO!!!! Once you generate LOD textures, it does in fact make you a .lod file! So no more hex editing.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:07 am

Okay this is the process I used for generating LOD...I tested it a few times...seems to be the only way I could get it working.

EDIT: Scratch that..... couldn't repeat it.

Something is seriously wrong, one moment I could make the textures, but now when I try and repeat it I cant get the textures to generate again.....gah!

@ Psilopat: can you write down when you did what at what points? I can't seem to get the ordering right for it.

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:46 pm

unfortunately it doesn't work for me, since it is looking for the Oblivion textures it gets all confused with the Skyrim textures....but it doesnt fail until it tries to read the .esp, says it is Unable to read entire marker record (29919 bytes) from MyMod.esp into memory.

Have you actually made it work? what were all the steps you did to get it working?

EDIT: What we really need is TES4LODGen updated to Skyrim. That was one tools that was quick and easy ot use in order to make LOD.

I think you might be using the wrong version. Here's the one with Skyrim support: http://projectmanager.f2s.com/morrowind/downloads/TES4qLOD-0.58beta2.zip

The usage is very simple.
Just extract the files to your data folder.
Run tes4qlod with a comand console
Type in "Tes4qlod NameOfYourWorldspace NameOfYourPlugin.ESP" and hit enter
Wait a while for it to Finish And boom, youre done.
good luck

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:51 pm

Also is anyone else having trouble with lod water?

» Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:48 am

I'm trying to keep up with you guys at the moment, seems to be hurtling along, hopefully towards a fix. I am at work until this evening again, but will start to follow your lead tonight when I get home. I'll go for trial and error and see what happens, I'll note things down as I go.