For as long as there aren't any robots I couldn't even be bothered. Can I have the fifth chapter please?

I would love to see the creatures/monsters from morrowind and some real animals. And I wouldn't mind a few robots that might have escaped the dwemer ruins.


EDIT: And please bring back the cliff racers.

I would actually rather they created some new wildlife for a different province, but, if they want to go cheap in the concept design department again, I hope they go back to Morrowind's creatures. Far more superior to cliché wildlife, much of which I can find on Earth.

And yes, Cliff Racers, or some kind of equivalent, need to make a comeback. How the hell does a high spawn rate in one game make a whole creature awful? Cliff Racers where fine. If it wasn't for the spawn rate, no one would complain. Everyone would be fine with the slow decend rate and noise they make. And, if they're included, I doubt Bethesda wouldn't fix the spawn rate. Should we get rid of AI because NPC's could kill eachother in Oblivion? No. It's the same princible.

How original are creatures you've already seen for what I assume must be years? If anything, I would expect Skyrim's bestiary to resemble that of Cyrodiil's, but with some were-creatures and a few different takes on the same, familiar creatures. Original creatures are nice, but how long does the novelty really last for creatures that make no sense for an environment and have been seen for 8 years, already?

That was the reason Bethesda got rid of their original AI plans, by the way.

What would you have expected of a large, ashy, volcanic wasteland where hardly anything should be able to survive? You shouldn't decide on what the province will be like, based on the earlier games. The world changes from the lore, when it wouldn't make an insteresting world. Would you have honestly enjoyed Morrowind if it was just one big Red Mountain Region?

Also, it is very possible to create unique wildlife for Skyrim. Any cold reagion can pull it off. A good example of possible wildlife would be the "Ice" types from Pokémon. For example, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qRiaND-9yDg/S1N9zsKavnI/AAAAAAAACVc/fBrixvc5rgg/s400/articuno.png. (Childhood :wub:)


So, you think they should completely remove Oblivion's level of AI, because NPC's would kill eachother?

No, I didn't mean anything like that. I love the originality, but it has become just something I'm completely used to, and bringing them into Skyrim wouldn't interest me anymore than goblins and deer do. I want unique creatures for Skyrim(but I'm expecting some were-creatures and perhaps some trolls/goblins, as well), but bringing Morrowind's creatures into Skyrim just wouldn't be any more interesting than goblins and deer because I've already seen those creatures. I've already seen kagouti and alit, and on top of just not feeling right for Skyrim, it doesn't fascinate any more. For example, goblins, trolls, Daedra, zombies, walking skeletons, ghosts, etc. were all interesting at one point. Everyone started their fantasy gaming/obsessions somewhere, and the first time goblins and these other creatures were brought into fantasy, they were interesting and new. Now, they've become so commonly used that people don't see them as anything new. They aren't what people would consider interesting anymore because they've already been seen before. Morrowind's creatures are no different. They were cool and original in Morrowind, but now that we've seen them and are used to them, they aren't quite as fascinating as they once were. We're used to them, and so bringing them into Skyrim isn't really any more original than just bringing goblins in, and I can pretty much guarantee that Skyrim is not the tropical, volcanic area that Vvardenfell is, so these creatures just wouldn't fit and would no longer be original. It just seems to me that if they aren't going to be original, Morrowind's creatures wouldn't be original either and they wouldn't fit into Skyrim as much as Oblivion/Bloodmoon's bestiaries. I want original creatures, but now that we've seen them, alit, kagouti, guar, and cliffracers just aren't those original creatures.

Oblivion's level of AI is a gimped version of what Bethesda originally had in mind because NPCs really did constantly kill each other in that old version and Bethesda couldn't fix it in time, according to them. Perhaps that's why all the essential tags are in the game, because of that lost possibility. I don't believe the game would be fun(although it would be hilarious) if every time I walked into a city, a beggar and a store owner beat each other with rakes to death because the beggar stole food from the shopkeeper. The occasional City-Swimmer-esque incident is in the final game, but from what Bethesda stated, it was once far more severe. You know how if you get into a fight, sometimes a guard will hit a citizen or another guard and cause a large battle to erupt in the middle of a city in Oblivion? I don't want that to happen commonly and randomly without any involvement from myself. It would be too chaotic, in my opinion. I hope Bethesda fixes the problems they had with their original AI so that the real radiant AI makes it into the series, but as with cliff racers, the way it was just isn't acceptable, in my opinion, assuming what Bethesda told us about the way it was is true.

I wouldn't want to see anything like Morrowind's creatures in Skyrim (with the possible exception of a fixed cliffracer, for reasons I'll explain below). As I've noted before, they're strange and foreign looking because they're isolated and they live in a f-ed up environment. See this quote from the Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Notice how the only creatures that were present in previous Elder Scrolls games (besides Daedra) were rats, dreugh, and slaughterfish? Two of those are aquatic, and the third's presence can be explained by real-world history (rats hiding in the cargo of a ship and disembarking in the new world). What does that tell you? The ecology of Vvardenfell is nothing like the rest of the province. While that doesn't preclude unique wildlife for Skyrim, it does mean that the wildlife of Vvardenfell is specifically adapted to, well, Vvardenfell, and it couldn't thrive elsewhere. On the same note of isolation, Morrowind is blocked off from the rest of Tamriel by, again according to the PGE, a mountain range high enough to block off the ash clouds from Vvardenfell (which is why the rest of the empire has clear skies). That means that, even where mainland Morrowind connects to Skyrim, the majority of creatures wouldn't be able to migrate into that region. That being said, Cliffracers have a notable advantage in clearing oceans and mountains, so it seems likely that we would see some relative in Skyrim that has adapted to the cold (like speciation in birds).

Skryim, however, is connected to the rest of Tamriel along a pretty wide border, meaning that creatures from Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and High Rock would be able to migrate into that region with greater ease, and many of them like Ogres and Minotaurs are already shown in Cyrodiil to do pretty well in colder climates (Jerall Mountains), so it also seems likely that we'll see those return as well.

My guess, based on Bethesda's track record, for the bestiary of Skyrim is: minotaurs, ogres, dreugh, slaughterfish, imps, rats, bats, harpies, giants, cliffracers, spriggans, horkers, Rieklings (in lieu of goblins), udyrfrykte, grahl, wolves, bears, boars, werecreatures and some fantasy-themed variations on wolverines, lynx(es?), reindeer and muskoxen. And, of course, Daedra and undead. This encompasses all possible creatures I'm predicting-- also based on Bethesda's track record, I doubt all of these would make it in. Also, I want to state for the record that I would expect all returning creatures to get a full makeover to feel more specialized to Skyrim.

Morrowind's creatures haven't been used in pretty much every fantasy game out there. While, I too don't want to see only Morrowind's creatures again, I would rather we see those than the standard, boring, cliché ones. This is assuming Bethesda want to cut the funds to the concept department, again. Which isn't a definate thing. We may (and hopefully will) see some new, unique creatures that have never been seen before, that are native to Skyrim.


What are you talking about? I'm not complaining about AI being cut down from the lies of the e3 demo. My point was, you shouldn't expect Bethesda to cut out Oblivion's level of AI in TESV, because there where bugs in it, just as something like Cliff Racers shouldn't be cut because there where too many spawns.


This never happens. If this where to happen, there would be Cliff Racers, Guar, Kagouti, Alit, etc. swarming the eastern side of Cyrodiil, and Mintaurs and Ogres would be swarming western Morrowind. (Vvardenfell isn't isolated, as people like to think, it's pretty much a large river between it and the mainland, even when you count the scaling)

And goblins don't count. They're not Cyrodiilic, they're all over Tamriel, perhaps Nirn.

I just don't want to see everything being recycled in TESV. I want to see unique wildlife and architecture. Hence my point about if anything's to be recycled, it should be from the more unique aspects of the series (Morrowind)

Except heyyyyy, like I said, http://uesp.net/wiki/File:Racemap05S-Morrowind.jpg Meanwhile, http://uesp.net/wiki/File:Skyrim_map_Oblivion.jpg, but there isn't a continuous mountain range blocking it off. Mountains are just as effective as a form of isolation as water, so if the entire province is blocked off (except, notably, an entry point into Black Marsh), it's going to be a lot different than anything else on the continent. Not to mention, you're assuming that guars, kagouti, alits, etc. are native to the mainland as well, which may not be the case, since we've never actually seen the mainland. The sea isn't exceptionally wide, but it is very deep, and is there anything on Vvardenfell that would be able to swim very well even if the waters weren't infested with slaughterfish and dreugh, both of which are pretty vicious predators?

Something tells me Morrowind's mainland is very similar to Cyrodiil in some parts and therefore without some of the more unique architecture of Vvardenfell(take a look at Cheydinhal, for example).

Assuming the basics of Nirn works like Earth, Vvardenfell wouldn't have always been cut off from the rest of Morrowind. It wouldn't have even been "seperated" for long, at all. Just think, there's the same wildlife native to England as there is to France. The water between us is far less than what I'd imagine between mainland Morrowind and Vvardenfell.


Meh. I always found Cheydinhal to be quite lazy. Just going towards the cliché of dark elves and thier glum outlook. If it where truely a Dunmer city, there'd be the Tribunal Religion, and the inhabitants may possibly (depending on how crap-ised they've been by the Imperials) be trying to get rid of the chapel. There would also be great house influenses. I would expect to see Hlaalu buildings (being the most accepting of the Empire). Not just because I want Morrowind 2, it's just pretty silly that Dunmer are suddenly building to Imperial specifications.

I may not be entirely correct, but isn't west Morrowind Redoran country, anyway?

Also, I doubt mainland Morrowind is like Cyrodiil. Perhaps there's a lot of Imperial presence, due to the mainland being pretty overrun with them, but when you look at the likes of Mournhold and the Ordinaters and how you'd expect house Dres to be, and the Tribunal temple, and the fully known great house influences (especially Telvanni in eastern Morrowind), you can't help but think that the "alien" feel spreads across Morrowind.

Anyway, pretty off topic.

It wasn't "truly" a Dunmer city, it was an Imperial city with Dunmer influences, just like Chorrol was an Imperial city with Breton influences, as well as Bruma and the Nords. How prevalent do you really think the Dunmer politics and religion would be in the heart of the Imperials' politics and religion. I see it more like Chinatown in San Francisco or, for an in-world example, the Foreign Quarter in Vivec. It's built according to the style of the region it's in, but the culture of its inhabitants gives it its flavor. Anyway, seti18 was only talking in terms of wildlife and geography, not culture. In terms of culture, nobody's arguing that it's anything like Cyrodiil. Though the ash storms of Vvardenfell extend to northern and western mainland Morrowind (where it's blocked in by the mountains), so in terms of climate, it may well have similar aspects to Vvardenfell (at least in the northwest). In terms of ecology the mainland is probably a combination of the giant insects of the ashlands, the more conventional wildlife of Cyrodiil (adapted to a harsher terrain, obviously), and whatever the hell crawls up out of Black Marsh in the south. But I still really don't think that the wildlife is as exotic as Vvardenfell, just because if there are goblins, minotaurs, and ogres (all creatures that are at least primitively intelligent) coming in from Cyrodiil, things like alits (a mouth on legs) would be at a marked disadvantage. Vvardenfell, I think, is so strange specifically because of the lack of competition from the mainland, meaning that things that wouldn't survive on the mainland due to being completely absurd (a mouth on legs) there become top predators.

Also, Vvardenfell is an island like Hawaii-- that is, it's a volcano that pushed its way up out of the sea, and eventually habitable land formed around it. So you're technically correct in that it was never cut off from the mainland, because it was never connected to the mainland to begin with.

EDIT: Yes, it's off-topic, but these are the kinds of discussions that I find interesting. :shrug: You can feel free to stop if you like, I'm going to continue speculating on the evolution of Vvardenfell's insane wilderness.

Well, another reason why I'm pretty confident that the mainland of Morrowind's creatures are similar to Cyrodiil's are the goblins in Tribunal.

Well, it's arguable that those were smuggled into the city and then they lost control of them in the sewers, http://uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Goblin_Army But, it's also entirely possible that they were brought in from relatively nearby. :shrug:

I would like both real and fantasy depending on the province in which the game takes place.

an ashy wasteland with too much of a particular wild life?

No, Vvardenfell is an island like Ireland. It has the same wildlife as the rest of Britain, and is only seperated by a fairly small amount of ocean. Sure, Vvardenfell may have begun like Hawaii (I don't believe there's any proof either way), but, it's nowhere near as isolated as it. Hawaii is an awful example.


Meh. Just thought people tended to not like being off topic...


Goblins aren't Curodiilic. They're found all over Tamriel. Even in Vvardenfell, probably, the devs probably just didn't feel they needed to add them in the main game.

First, while the sea isn't as wide, again, it's deep enough and teeming with enough deadly wildlife to render it basically inaccessible to clumsy, landlocked creatures like guar, alits, kagouti, and kwama. Can you really see a short, fat, giant mouth on two tree trunk legs outswimming a Dreugh? Also, I can't remember for sure where I found it (I'll try to look for it), but I'm fairly certain I read that the fauna of Vvardenfell is so adapted to the ash-heavy atmosphere and climate that if you remove them, they would die.



http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vvardenfell

So the official lore is that it was originally part of the mainland, then the Heart of Lorkhan crashing into Morrowind reduced that entire area to an impact crater (the Inner Sea), and then Red Mountain pushed its way out of the water again (exactly like Hawaii). So you're sort of correct in that it was at one point all above land, but the heart's impact would have wiped out most wildlife already present, and the subsequent flooding would have eliminated whatever was left, so the life there would be all new.

And you actually validated our point with your comment about goblins. They're found all over Tamriel, which implies that most of Tamriel has a more unified, familiar ecology, and Vvardenfell is the odd man out. You can't say "I'm sure there are goblins there SOMEWHERE..." If the devs didn't include them, then the canon shows that they aren't there. And THAT shows, again, that Vvardenfell is NOTHING like the rest of Tamriel.

Just look at http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i201/Vality7/maps/tamrieltopo.jpg. It's often used as a complete source of how Tamriel works. Almost Bethesda canon. I feel we can trust it, since it uses in-game representations and lore. Look at the distance from Sadrith Mora to the mainland. Or Ebonheart to the mainland, or Tel Branora to the mainland, or Gnaar Mok to the mainland, or the area Gnisis is at to the mainland. I stand by that each province is entirely unique (early games where before lore was really fleshed out). They are bound by environments an mountains. Also, wasn't Ebonheart once a part of Mainland Morrowind, only the land had shifted? Unless that was just lore changing. And land rarely (meybe never?) just vertically drops naturally. It slowly sinks as it goes along. There is nowhere near enough room for that between the mainland and Vvardenfell. This is even taking proper scale into account.

Mainland Morrowind has the same environment as the greeen areas of Vvardenfell. And Vvardenfell is basically attatched to the mainland. Creatures often swim short distances to get away from an area with too many predators higher up in the food chain.



Goblins are almost sentient. They're like the Orcish representation from Daggerfall. Perhaps a bit lower. They can actually think for themselves on an intelligent level. (Think us during the Ice Age)


On another note: Do you actually want the whole of Tamriel to be the exact same as Cyrodiil? Do you care nothing for the provinces being unique and cultural? Do you only want to see Wolves, Bears, Goblins, Minotaurs and Ogres? Next you'll be wanting to remove Khajiit and Argonians. Replace 'em with Halflings and Dwarves. :unsure2:

Seeing cliffracers in glorious next gen animation would seriously kick ass.

Think of the winged nazgul in LOTR and fighting one with a spear.

Quantity killed the cliffracer, cos they a cool kind of enemy to fight.

I'd like a combination of enemies from MW/OB.. guar's and scribs id like to see return. Imps umm probably not. I just dont buy the idea that there are little cute demons in the local park who can shoot lightening bolts.

minotaurs? lol no. is this ancient greece or what?

land dreughs, the giant spiders' from daggerfall.. hell yes.

rats.. wouldnt be an ES game without rats.

goblins definatly.

wild silt striders would be cool.

I want to see a better developed vampire culture/heirarchy..

BOSSES!!! we really need some unique once only boss creatures.. maybe a hugh stone golem or giant legendary snake you have to hunt by following clues.

The thing that ruined cliff Racers wasn't the quantity. I think every Cliff Racer was a part of a levelled list (at least most of them). The problem was, they where the highest in the lists. There wasn't another choice. It would be something like:

level 1: Rat
Level 3: Diseased Rat
Level 5: Nix Hound
Level 7: Diseased Nix Hound
Level 11: Alit
Level 15: Cliff Racer

Not exactly, but you get my point. Once you get to a certain level, almost all creatured spawned are Cliff Racers. There should be more creatures at single levels. At level 15, they could have easily had Cliff Racers, Alit and Nix Hounds. I would have had 1/3 chance to see them, then. Most non-Cliff Racer wildlife you saw in Morrowind were static hand placed creature. (Alits near Caldera, Kagouti near Gnisis) No levelled lists, apart from perhaps diseased/blighted variations. It was the same in Oblivion, and I hope they remedy it in TESV.

is that why scribs and kwama stop attacking after a certain level?

btw where is your avatar from?

Voted more fantastical creatures, but there is a catch; they have to make sense in their respective area. I don't want to see the MW bug species we saw outside of Morrowind, as they are unique to Vvardenfell and, well, landlocked. Something like horkers in Skyrim's colder climate, along the shores, makes sense and are fantastical creatures.

Scribs attack? I've never known them to do so. And Kwama, apart from workers have always attacked me. They appear a lot less outside mines, though.

Probably my game being dumb, again.

My Avatar is from UESP. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedric_Princes. Look at the article for a prince to see the possible avatar. Look at the Daggerfall representations of them. Mine is Hircine.

You're basically arguing that the wildlife of Vvardenfell is completely unlike that of other provinces in Tamriel because of the natural barriers that essentially block it off from the rest of Tamriel, but IMO, seeing that the environments of the provinces in Tamriel are most likely just as different from one another as Cyrodiil is from Vvardenfell, and that these radical changes in environment between the provinces alone are just as effective as a barrier as mountains or bodies of water, each province has the potential to have completely different wildlife from any other province.
Not to mention that Tamriel is part of a fantasy world, and so the developers have the artistic lisence to make each province as unique in it's ecology as they want anyway, hopefully while still keeping it convincing.

(I could probably get my point across better if I could actually concentrate, but I haven't slept much lately plus my niece is running around the house :wacko:)

On another note, the reason that goblins are found all over Tamriel is the same reason why early humans spread throughout the world: Intelligence


Creatures like guars will most likely not be in the next game if it's set in Skyrim, I can't really see presumably cold-blooded reptilians like them doing very well in a cold environment. Plus silt striders would probably slip on ice ...