Yes, this.

Spell failure absolutely needs to make a comeback in general.

It made speechcraft obsolete, made the AI just look bad as there's no subtlety to casting a spell right at someone and then getting no reaction other than increased disposition, and their disposition system was too transparent and numerical anyway.

I hope they just remove it. Illusion shouldn't be speechcraft+stealth+additional utility.

Fair point. But there are some reasons to think that charm won't make speechcraft redundant in Skyrim.

1. No spell-making. In Oblivion you could make a short lasting but high magnitude charm spell. It didn't require a lot of magicka, nor was it especially difficult to cast effectively. But with no spell-making, this "exploit" might be out. You might need to be a decent mage, and have decent magicka reserves, to cast a decent charm spell.
2. This is somewhat related, but now upon level up you choose to increase one of health, magicka, or stamina. If using the charm spell effectively requires more magicka, then you need to invest in that stat. For a stealth character who prefers to have more points in stamina and health, speechcraft is a way of persuading people without needing to invest some of their level-up points into magicka.

But didn't they notice the big green ball of energy coming towards them beforehand?

At the very least, other people around should report you.

Not to mention that people now talk in real time now, so a 1 second charm spell will not last as long as you need it to.

But at the person you replied to, I also get annoyed that illusion and alteration make security, sneak and speechcraft (and therefore, to some degree, mercantile) redundant plus having extra features.

Good point about real-time conversations - that will make a difference.

As for the other point, I'm not so bothered by that, up to a point. I tend to think that mages should have the most options - after all, they're using magic. Or at least, that's how I look at it. The way to prevent mages from becoming the only sensible option is just to avoid making magic too easy to use. Get rid of automatic magicka regeneration. Make strong spells need more magicka. Bring back chance to fail at casting. And so on. Once you get things like that, being able to do certain tasks without needing magic starts to look like a good option.

I think a suggest above regarding a drop is disposition afterwards would be practical. Essentially the NPC would have a hinkey feeling after the charm wears off and their 'natural' disposition toward you would drop.

I think someone also talked about resistance; perhaps the NPC would, over time, grow resistant to your spell making it more of a challenging experience.

What about having charm a 'touch' only spell? Makes it riskier and not so green blobbable

No as long as nobody witnessed it.

In fiction (i.e. vampire hypnosis) people don't realize their being hypnotized. Therefore they would be none the wiser.

People wouldn't know they were charmed because they didn't realize it in the first place.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh :biggrin:

I think this is probably a good way to go. Shopkeepers are people you tend to talk to a fair bit. So, under that system, Charming would not be a good long-term strategy to getting good deals. Or, at least, it only would be if you became a good enough mage to cast powerful Charm spells to raise the shopkeeper's disposition from 0 to 80 (or whatever).

Of course, there are also NPCs you might only talk to once. But I don't think it's so immersion breaking if you "fool" an NPC just once by casting a spell on them, and then never deal with them again.

*Waves hand*
"Your disposition towards me is at one hundred."
"My disposition towards you is at one hundred."

True, I agree. However, my point with this topic was not about abusing the game. Rather the point was to suggest a way to add to the realism of Skyrim.

One of the ways for me to stay immersed in the ES world is for me to to believe that I am actually there. What would things be like if I were actually in the ES world? Is it believeable? Would the things that happen in the game actually happen in that world if I were there?

Concerning charm spells, this is how I imagine it would be if I were in the ES world:
- One day, a mage comes along and creates a new spell that "charms" people. Wanting to make some money, this mage sells the spell to others. Soon, lots of people have charm spells.
- Then one day, a person goes into a shop and, using the charm spell on the owner, gets a really good deal on an item. But, the owner feels dupped and takes the matter up with the local countess. Maybe the countess sides with the owner, maybe not.
- But a time later, someone strolls in to see the countess, and using a charm spell gets a great discount on a house for sale, buying it for only 1000 gold, instead of the listed 3000 gold. Upon reflection, the countess rules that charm spells are outlawed in town, because if not, everyone is going to go around charming the shop owners, city watch, prison guards, the woman next door, royalty, etc etc. To prevent the abuse of unsuspecting people, charming people is illegal. (Additionally, the countess takes back the house that was bought from her for only 1000 gold....)

To immerse myself in an ES world, I need it to be believeable. Things should make sense. If here in our world, there were something like a charm spell (maybe laughing gas for instance) that you could go into a store, hit the person behind the counter with the charm, and walk out with a $1000 necklace for only $500, i'm sure that charm would be outlawed pretty quick, especially if anyone could get their hands on it.

Being able to legally charm someone in public just doesn't seem to make sense either here or in the game, and seems to take away from the realism of the ES world.

I'd like to see a charm spell with no green ball of light, perhaps touch only charm? I imagine it would work the same as a jedi mind trick, you get tricked but the effect never really wears off i.e. later all you think is "man that was a cool dude, whatever"

I just think if a green ball of light shot out of Obi-wan's hand and smacked a storm trooper in the face he would have attracted a lot more attention than he intended.

hehe, ok, um in fiction, a vampire's hypnosis is fairly rare, in fact any kind of hypnosis is rare. Not alot of vampires (or non-vampires) walking around hypnotizing people, and most probably wouldn't even know the person with the slick hair and black cape in front of them was a vampire to begin with.

But in the ES world charm spells are everywhere. The mages guild has them; the shops have them. So, right away, when someone walks into your shop, you might immediately wonder if this shopper happens to have a charm spell at the ready in order to get a really really good deal on that uber weapon you have.... Know what I mean? But in fiction (in general), not many of people who wander into your shop would you wonder whether they are vampires who happen to have hypnosis ability.

The point is, sure, in fiction people probably wouldn't know they are being hypnotized, because it's fairly rare. But in the ES world, with charms spells widely available, how could they not know? Why would they not do something to put a stop it?

I agree with the OP, and I will expand upon the subject and ask: Under what circumstances would it be legal to cast a spell, any spell, on someone without their permission or against their will? Perhaps if they are injured and you heal them, but in real life people have been sued for helping others. That's why we have good samaritan laws.

Oh, come on. Everyone knows they're only illegal if you fail.

I think that the charm spell is moore like mumbling some words and the person whi is affected dont know about it.
Like in the star wars movie

I think using any kind of spell in public should be a crime. Like in Baldur's Gate 2. If you cast a spell, someone from the mages guild should be able to flag you down and give you a warning. Next time you do it, mages and guards should tackle you and force you to pay a fine/go to prison.

Mind you, this would only apply in public areas. Maybe an enchantment placed in each town can register unautherized magic use? Just a thought...

Jedi mind trick anyone?

Credits WILL do fine.

Basically, you are asking to make Charm completely useless by not doing the service it is meant to be doing?

This is Illusion magic we are talking about. Unless the spell has a very visible effect on the target like Paralysis, nobody sees you casting it and nobody else sees the floating green orb in the first place.

more like press lips :wub:

hmmm well I guess charm spell is out

never thought it was useful or balanced for that matter.

Charm spells should be a crime if seen by a third party. That would go some way towards balancing it, as many shopkeepers have guards or work together.

Well personally I prevent for self using of exploitable combinations for charm spells an I use some nice mods for reduce this exploit power and suits better for my Nightblade character.
Mind-Control Crime
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=24099


Stealthy Absorbs and Drains v1
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=28292

That's pretty much saying "the Charm spell should be axed", because if you can't cast it on anyone without committing a crime, what's the point?
Short answer: No. It's fine the way it is.

Man, I'm a m*f*cking wizard. I fought the law and I won. I can blast people and things just by my own will. I had to study a lot while other people engaged in social activities (speechcraft) or climbed trees or anything. But now I can do a lot of things using my magic. What's the use of being a wizard if you are to be limited as a non magic user? Wizards ARE limited as well, you have to balance your Magic reserves, your concentration wears off (that would be anice add in TES), you have to think carefully - but still you are superior to a lot of people!

(Note I didnt read most of anyone elses posts, sorry before hand if anyone else thought of this before me) If you cast a charm spell on a shop keep/etc. maybe, they could have, like someone/something that could detect that type of spell being cast, like some sort of charm spell alarm, that would break them from the trance, and call/alert the authorities, and just make you pay a fee or something, since it was only minor. Or if it was a magic shop/ had a magic user in it they could detect you used a charm spell/etc. and do whatever.