We already know that the Dunmer have become a 'stealth' race with Skyrim, not really in keeping with established lore or previous games, but upon designing an Imperial character I have just noticed something; why is it that, of all races, the Imperials do not have Speech as a racial skill? It's always been their principal skill and everything about their lore and ingame descriptions say, ad nauseam, that they are from a civilised and cosmopolitan province etc... It really comes to something when Nords, of all people, have the gift of the gab when Cyrodiils do not! Likewise, their natural affinity for magic is another thing without any real precedent.

Redguards, in addition, have also suddenly become Mages with Skyrim. We know from ingame lore, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Trayvond_the_Redguard, that Redguard culture is not by any means enthusiastic about magic.

I am not of course saying that Bethesda can't do what they please with their own games, but would merely observe that the Races have much less of a distinct flavour and identity than in previous games. It seems like a deliberate strategy, so I thought I'd just put this out there... With Redguard's casting destruction, and Nord's out-talking Nibenese merchants, my world just makes a little less sense!

Speech is nearly useless in Skyrim.

It is a curious change to be sure. The Imperials used to be lightly armored and speech and blade focused. Now they have no speech and are basically shoehorned into the Crusader class from previous games. It is a bit strange and unnecessary. Just switch enchant with speech(and make the speeh skill the +10 one instead of restoration) and heavy armor with light armor and you're closer to the original right away. The Redguard thing also makes little sense to me.

The Nord racial skills makes sense in Skyrim though. They have long traditions as bards and often man merchant fleets, so speech isn't out of the question. And while heavy armor has commonly been more associated with the Nords, light armor makes sense as well, with the whole "pelt wearing axe-draggers" thing about them. The rest is just weapon and smithing skills, which is hardly controversial about the Nords.

There's no longer major and minor skills set in stone so starting with a lesser speech skill doesn't really matter in the long run...they still have the voice of the emperor and naturally find more coin

...and by long run you mean after lvl 1.

This x 1000.

this made me laugh

Agreed. The racial skill bonuses in this game are seemingly arbitrary and almost completely lore breaking. At least they gave bosmer a 10 point marksman, err, I mean archery bonus didn't they. Oh wait, didn't they? The pointless post about the pointlessness of speechcraft aside, it is absolutely absurd that Imperial don't still have at least +5.

Of course, they have had a lot of problems with lore consistent racial bonuses for a while. In MW the manual's description of Imperials included a phrase about their skill with heavy armor, yet the in game bonus was for heavy. They goof up so much stuff that absolutely should not be goofed up it really makes me wonder.

Since they patched the Black Briar Meadary exploit, it's become even MOAR useless...

Maybe demoting imperials' silver tongues demonstrates how low the empire has sunk after the white/gold concordat. Interesting that the nords, many of whom are taking up the cause of skyrim's cultural independence, have a speech bonus.

Speech is an art of a rogue style of play which doesn't really suit an Imperial all that much. Speech is one of those limited skills so I'm glad they've changed it.

The only thing I wish is that Nords were heavy armor like in Morrowind as it makes more sense them being high stamina pure melee and I wish Imperials were light armor like in Morrowind as it makes more sense them being warrior mages with a levelled stamina & magicka balance.

Dunmer I think have gone away from the stealthy Ashlander archers to more of a Destruction based Battlemage role. It makes no sense to me why they give Dunmer a light armor bonus yet make all their main racial armors as heavy.

So no ones taking evolutionary skills into this? Yea cave men had a speech skill of 0 look at us now? Should we all be yelling and talking nonsense instead of proper language just because its "lore breaking"

You realize that Speech covers diplomacy, yes?

But is that really important in character building and completing quests?

You can't complete quests with Alchemy either, so best get rid of that as well.

So yes, if you want to build a charismatic sweet-talker or a canny diplomat, Speech is important.

I suspect the discrepancies in the consistencies of racial skill bonuses in Skyrim compared to previous titles could be due to them distributing skill bonuses evenly through all ten races, even when they don't make sense. Has anyone seriously checked it out from that angle, because if that's not it, then I have no idea WTF was going through BGS' minds when they created this system.

I'm sure the numbers for such a character would be massive. I agree there should be a sub skill for diplomacy which falls under a bigger skill tree for barter, persuade etc. I think it needs to be grouped with similar sub skills so it become a viable skill tree choice for more character types rather than the exception. Likewise I think pickpocket should be in the same skill tree as lock picking and similar light fingered work. I find it hard to want to choose pickpocket as a skill when I need things like magic, sneak, attack and defence more. I would as a perk though to an already chosen skill like sneak or lock pick.