Thanks for the bainifiying explanations Psymon, you got me convinced of using Bain myself.
My next install will be fully bained, will keep a close eye on this thread for good advice.

Dude - BAIN now - why wait.

If you BAIN ahead of time and test each package - then reinstall is that much easier.

My plan is to redo the massive install I have now in half a day - about 2/3 of my install is BAINed now and actually deluxified with many more choices that are such a breeze to swap out. I'll post more - even though there seems to be little to no dialogue about this - understandably - no release just info.

I've got Custom BAin drafts for a few more collections - but refining them - could post the FCOM one - but that'll change I can tell with 9.9.5.

A guide for baining FCOM would be most welcome indeed!
Ive finally created a sort of stable modded Oblivion game and since my gaming time is rare, i dont want to spend another day reinstalling Oblivion from scratch.

Oblivion itself and the expansions, (un)officials patches arent much of a problem. The biggest time consumer would be reinstalling all the mods ive been using and organising them in a Bainable way.

I have to admit your guide is convincing me more and more each time i read it, so please continue your work.
If i find the time to spend one weekend in absolute solitary, i will give Bain a go.
In the meantime, i will do some more background reading about Bain.

1st install was installing oblivion and dumping mods right into the game folder (which results in big problems in the end)
2e install was using OBMM only, which saved me quite a few problems / crashes, yet there still are a few conflicts in my modlist / Data folder.
3rd install will be Bain + Tes4Edit.

Ill get there, one day (knowing myself, ill probably Bain my Oblivion next month )

Nice list of sky mods. One noticeably missing though: BEAUTIFUL STARS V1.0 By Cylume "Pokeil"

I don't have a link handy, but I use the skystars02.dds file from this package in my sky mixture. It's the one that does the colored constellations and is the best rendition of those I've found.

Loch Hi Rez Moons are simply incredible. I'd never seen that one before and now have a new set of moons, thanks

Been trying to figure out where I got my SkyStars.dds file from because it's got quite a bit more stars than vanilla but none of the ones on your list have it. So somewhere out there is another sky mod you missed. Apparently I must have deleted the archive accidentally. Which was probably rather dumb.

@LordDamus-
I can relate on installs. I'm on my 4th, but to be honest the first three were practice in hindsite (similar to your 1st isntall x3) my current 5 month install all kinds of ways. With Annealing in BAIN - no reason to wait.

@Arthmmor-
Found it: http://www.oblivionmods.org/files/14300_BeautifulStars.zip.html Will check it out.

I thought about mixing up just the stars textures too - only 3 of them that could be done ... tomorrow.

I really liked Brumbecks and CorePC's versions - always was attracted to the sparser versions like Real Night Sky - but that mod is real only if you live near large light sources. Go out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean and look up - nothing but an ocean of cosmic brilliance - no electric lights in Oblivion - so why not the same.

that said most of the nasa images were dissapointing - they lacked clarity and rarely match the star textures - found about 10 good nebulas.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7874/nightsky.png

Shows what I mean. The main star field is easily twice as dense. I don't really want it to get crazy dense like some shots I've seen. That also shows one of the constellations and part of the nebula I use which I also can't find the information for. But it's a 10MB nebula file, highly detailed and the best I've ever seen.

Actually: "New Nebular 1" is the one I have, so yeah. Guess I can recover that archive now

-~>FCOM BAIN BASICS<~-
for LordDamus

This Package is not meant to be the end-all-be-all guide to installing FCOM. I still refer to these sites for info:
http://devnull.devakm.googlepages.com/convergence
http://fivefries.googlepages.com/fcominstallationguide
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:FCOM
they still have most of what you need to get going. Worth mentioning is this: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19443

So this is actually several BAIN projects and considered waiting for the heavy hitting modders post their versions (which I suspect they will soon anyway). These versions however do not have the complete installs of each overhaul ? especially Frans and OOO. Warcry is so very simple that it is a simple BAIN structure; however, why it is not already available prepatched at this late hour is beyond me). MMM is already done (I just added a few things) not covering that here. FCOM is large and last. The point of these are not to provide complete versions of these mods but rather to provide what is required for FCOM plus some additional content (some of which is within the overhaul and some from elsewhere).

OOO for FCOM-BAIN
00 OOO for FCOM core
---contains all the data files, readmes, and:
OOO-Waterfish.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
---for now my install has all the OOO files loose on reinstall I will instead put the new bsa in here. This core sub-package has OOO up to 1.34 beta 5

10 OOO for FCOM add ons
---contains these alternatives for use with FCOM - from OOO full package: http://devnull.sweetdanger.com/OOO/OOO_Guide.html
OOO-Container_Trap_Instant_Effects.esp
OOO-Magic_Script_Effect_Fix.esp
OOO-No_Guild_Ownership.esp

---these are other mods I included in this package that seemed most appropriate here:
20 Shivering OOO http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12061
21 Geomancy & Gem Dust http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21102
22 Wearable GS and DS armor for OOO http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17647

---these are appended armor and clothing meshes included for completeness and easy switching between body mods (although frankly body mods are already boring to me).
30 OOO armor for Robert Male http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14984
40 OOO armor for Exnem http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11290
40 OOO armor for Fantasy Figures ? cant find working link ? anybody?
40 OOO armor for BAB http://www.leiawen.net/ceedee/Files/Bab_OOOarmors.7z
---at this point I'm keeping specific armor/clothing meshes for body mods with the mods they alter. I did that with FRANs and Armamentarium as well. New methods of doing these body mods patches on the horizon (here) using esp pluggins instead of mesh replacers ? I'm not the one to ask about though.

Frans for FCOM-BAIN

To me Francescos Mod is a tangled web ? so many options ? I get lost. More so than with OOO. This is again an attempt to focus in on what is compatible with FCOM only. This thread: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=921906 and this TESNEXUS page: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17621 contain a lot of information.

To begin with when making these activate the exe installers and have the destination folder be a temp directory then rearrange the files like so:
00 FRANS for FCOM Core
---this contains the primary files necessary to work with an FCOM install. It has all the meshes,sounds, and textures plus:
Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional Chance for More Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Oblivion ? FraNewItems.bsa → renamed from FraNewItems.bsa as per instructions on FCOM site.

05 FRANS for FCOM ? no MOBS or Lyrondor
*** Of note when Creating this and following the five fries work sheet one could create a version of all of this without Lyrondor's Combat behavior and MOBS stats. If one wanted to have less of that for using another combat overhaul. (go Duke!)

10 FRANS for FCOM Add ons
---This contains the optional content when using frans with FCOM
Fran Armor Add-On http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11483 (Read Readme about other meshes and textures on this one)
Fran_Lv30Items http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15411
Francesco's Optional Leveled Quests-SI-only.esp http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17621 (this provides the optional quests only for SI area)

20 FRANS for FCOM fixes and tweaks
Francesco's Dark Seducer Weapons Patch.esp http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17621
Luck Based Loot for Frans http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14212 (not sure if this is OK with FCOM)
FranOBSEConfig http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=17621

30 Frans Armor for Roberts Male http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15097
40 Frans Armor for Roberts Female http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19997
40 Frans Armor for Exnem Female http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12069
40 Frans Armor for UFF http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15095
40 Frans Armor for Bab http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12340
So with this Package I have MOBS versus non MOBS version of FRANs and all the additional content. Reading the pages above there is probably more that could be added and if using FRANS alone one could really create complex packages.

FCOM Itself

FCOM was again actually simple to rebundle in BAIN format. I'll just got through and describe what is in each sub-package.

00 FCOM Core ? contains the meshes, textures and docs. And these files:
FCOM_ Convergence.esm
FCOM_ Francescos.esp
FCOM_ FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp
FCOM_ FrancescosNamedBosses.esp
FCOM_ RealSwords.esp
FCOM_BobsArmory.esp (not sure if these last two are essential)

Now since there are a few choices to inhibit the expression of overhauls within FCOM there are choices for that as well. Choose one.
10 FCOM Full
FCOM_Convergence.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
10 FCOM No MMM
FCOM_ OscurosOverhaul.esp
FCOM_ WarCry.esp
10 FCOM No WarCry
FCOM_ Convergence.esp
FCOM_ WarCryNoSpawn.esp
10 FCOM No MMM or WarCry (but why???)
FCOM_ OscurosOverhaul.esp
FCOM_ WarCryNoSpawn.esp
---I guess there is no suppressing OOO or FRANs with FCOM.

20 FCOM Modifiers ? contains all the game changing teaks that are not related to Spawn Rates. You can decide what should go here or be further divided into other sub-packages. In addition to these I added:
FCOM_ Archery http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18770
FCOM_Archery for Hunting and Crafting same link above (are these still Viable?)
FCOM_ Archery for FCOM_ Real Swords: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18683
FCOM_Archery for Armamentarium http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18614

30 FCOM Spawn Options ? friendly, safer, more, less, no spawns ? nuff said

40 FCOM Patches ? this sub-package contains all the patches available in the big download plus
FCOM_ New NPC Clothes for FCOM http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15165 (love that mod)
anyone else have patches for adding here?

50 FCOM Resources ? relevelers and 300_test

Now in a separate package altogether I combined the following mods into a simple package:
Bobs Armory
ExnemRuneSkulls
KDCircletsOOOOptimized-NPCEquip
Loth's Blunt Weapons for NPCs

I now have 6 packages that allow for easy install (or more like reinstall) of FCOM in minutes. Yes you still have to know what esps to pick- but this is for those that already know what they are. But I've reinstalled all of FCOM using BAIN within a matter of about 30 minutes (including rearranging mods, running bash, teslodgen and disk defregment) ? trying to get a full reinstall down to being able to be done in a few hours.

Looking over this that I wrote a couple weeks ago - I should go back to post 1 and give a more detailed account of how to make a BAIN archive.

As always ? NO credit to me ? thank the modders - thank yourselves.

Woot! A nice BAIN-list for FCOM is awesome. I'm just trying to install it and I wasn't looking forward to figuring out all the details of which esp goes with which setup. :goodjob:

Thanks for baining FCOM Psymon, you got me convinced

Going to do some more reading about Bain and will give it a spin.

Oh, nice one. I BAIN'ed the basics of each overhaul, but kept them seperate. Was easy to do that way. I like the body mods you added in. But, be aware. There is a project coming called EVE, and that will have all the new armor clothing overhauls with it for the big ones, and Arma. Corepc, Axil, Smoke, Grhys are working on it. So that will be a whole new project to work on. LOL For me at least.

I wonder about the Geomancy, Gem dust stuff you have there. They are all built into OOO, and MMM in different versions, and you have to go with one or the other. I am doing Geomancy from OOO, and the H&C with MMM, so I can get a good one from each. Just a FYI.

Aegyen-
Just to clarify that is 4 different archives I described there - but you could do it however you want.

The geomancy mod I refer to does everything that the MMM one does PLUS being what OOO does. With that you can drop MMM and not worry about conflicts.

Yeah I know about EVE - even have it installed right now waiting for more compatibility - that is what I meant by esp driven clothing mods instead. So all that may change those. Good thing is when updating these BAIN archives/projects it is easier than fishing through your install for files to delete (or counting on the extraction overwriting files). You can either delete a subpackage or install to a new one then replace the old one. If you have lock times and keep the name of the archive/project the same - wrye bash will work with you and update it's records of the archive - choose what new things you want and click anneal.

still, love your avatar the most. Can watch it forever.

of course again I suspect with FCOM 9.9.5 this will all be outdated.

yep I love the eve stuff..been trying a mix of different size for armor for Frans (wide for example), OOO (), arma (normal) give npc a different look..



Eve OOO armor is out if you are not keeping track on eve..Axil and Smoke (c push up bra) set's..see teseyecandy

Sky replacer's very nice..

Fcom Bain Very nice..

Corepc

On the Eve project, I am going to meld the body mods in with Cobl races, since I already modified it to use the "tail" nif to get Slof's robes to work. I melded in Robert's bodies just to see how Cobl races works, so I hope to be good to go after making my choices in the EVE mod. And then, all the armor replacers should just be graphics tags in bash, so I can Bain each of them. Will be interesting, I am sure... :brokencomputer:

I like the sky replacer too, I ended up using one Brumbek put together, just folded it in my BSA, so easy way there.

I have been lurking here for awhile and recently upgraded my home computer (Q9450, 260GTX Core 216, etc) so was looking into restarting/ reinstalling Oblivion. I had the usual FCOM, Qarl 3R, and more going and was working ok. Updating them made it less stable. SO a reinstall is in order. I am not a modder, just a player who is not interested in vanilla Oblivion. I was using FCOM helper then BOSS for orders. OBMM and Bash as well. Bain seems like a good idea and I figured I get to learning it. I have read quite a few things on it but seem to be missing some basics. And so I risk the flames

The packages, such as 00Core etc are merely folders with various files in them (ie textures, meshes esps etc) correct?
So I unzip a mod somplace (other than in data) reorganize such as your posts here indicate and place in the bain folder.
Then, in Bain, I can select parts (folders) to install or not? Have to Aneal? anything else? I have read things such as Wrye's site where a bunch of commands are possible, but not if they are necessary (modders makers tools vs mod players tools?). Before w/ Bash I ordered stuff, added tags, bash patched it, and then used OBMM to do something automatically when it closed (I forgot the term now and am not where I can look).
Then I ocassionally read of PyFFI and tes4edit etc and defrag. I know almost nothing of the pffy and tes4edit, I am assuming the are more of a modder's resource. Defrag, I can handle

What am I missing? There a basic BAIN users post or site out there. Preferably w/ pictures I am not even sure if this it the best place to post this but it has been one of the most educational posts I have read on Bain.

@Psymon: Nice work on Sky's and FCOM packs. I learn about new mods each time I read your posts. Keep it up!


An excellent choice you've made, hehe.

I'd read the Oblivion Performance thread for tips: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=881204&st=0&gopid=12871765&#entry12871765
See post one above for more BAIN links.

here is a beginning piece of instruction (basic stuff ahead).

As for making a BAIN package - think of it this way ... normally when you download a a mod it comes as an archive - either rar or 7zip that you need to extract. Most modders package these archives so that you could just click on the data folder within your Oblivion folder (wherever that is on you computer) as the destination of where to extract to and that would then install the files where they need to go. Older mods I've noticed tend to be archived so that you had to click on the oblivion folder itself. That said some modders are more old school than others and expect you to of course inspect each directory in the archive and know exactly where everything is. Some modders have their own reasons (which I cannot fathom)
where they placed alternate versions of the replacing files in alternately named folders which you have to search through all the folders to find (like Roberts body mods). Conventions change and so the prevailing wisdom I learned some 6 months ago when I first started this ahem ...hobby - was to extract everything to a temp directory. I later then used OBMM and then Wrye Bash.

The BAIN feature on wry bash really seems based in the wisdom that you should look in each folder and you should extract directly to a temp folder. What it does then is gives you the ability to then shift the content of the temp folder over to you data folder and back out again with a few clicks here and there. It will keep track of almost all files that will go in the main data folders: Docs, Meshes,Sounds, Textures, (just not OBSE or shaders). The trick it to rearrange files in the order that BAIN will recognize and then rezip/compress the data again for use with BAIN.

So for a simple package (BAIN word for archive) you could say extract mod 'dangerous quest' into a temp folder where the top directory has within it meshes, sounds, textures, docs, and the loose esp esm files. This will then install of it when used with BAIN - well there is an esp filter that allows you to pick which (if any) esp files to use - for cases where there may be a choice. You then can use BAIN much like OBMM and install the files you like then if you change your mind and uninstall it will extract the files for you and replace what they overwrote (if anything). In fact that is the real advantage over OBMM - it keeps track of what replacer is supposed to be where by having an install order for the projects/packages/archives. if you had a version of QTPIII and UOP and you had similar meshes from each mod you could make UOP win the priority of what is installed by moving it higher in install order.

When you do change the order you will get the packages changing colors which means that it detected an order shift and what is installed does not match what is supposed to be installed. You can fix that by clicking anneal which will then put things in the order of priority set by the install order. BAIN will also detect if replacers installed are overwritten by hand (manual) or OBMM - but will be unable to manage those files as they are not comming from its catalog of archives. that is the reason for going BAIN all the way.

But wait there is more ...

You can also create what are known as complex arhives. These are packages/archives where there are multiple top directories so that you could bundle variations on mods (including data replacer folders and esp like files) within one package. This is great for mods like MMM or Cobl where there is choice. and it makes choosing what you want more simplistic. "... oh wait I use Race Balancing Project and TNR normal, so I can skip coble races." and then just click on (choose) the sub-packages (what BAIN calls the altrnate top directories) I want. Wrye, I believe, designed this for complex mods and it does work great for better cities, Cobl, RBP, and so on. What I'm describing here is how to make use of that BAIN function to combine mods in ways that have not been done yet (or not that commonly done - not much new under this sun).

So far it is pure convention to name the 00 core directory such. The primary reason for that numbering is that BAIN will read the sub-packages in alphabetical order and so 00 ... 01 ...02. I suppose you could do 000 ...001 ... 002, etc. You do not have to click on the core for archives and I've created a few where there is no core per se it all choice top to bottom. this has been really great for those small texture replacers. Or, break larger ones apart (like I did for QTP III above) to make them more modular and easy to handle. Better yet, combine them in new ways - like stars which I already am going to split up the two or three stars textures from each into different folders so that I can combine starfields from Core, Brumbeck, etc. you can stack them endlessly that way (or until you run out of integers). all the while BAIN is keeping track of what is where - provided you packaged the archive just right. But even then if you make a mistake - it is easier to find because the archive you made is not going to have your whole install to make looking for the misplacement more difficult.

BAIN is still a work in progress (as it seems all things Wrye are) and so things and rules may shift - read that thread: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=951085 for the most part though it makes it easier and dare I say fun for those that tend to manually install.

I don't know of a BAIN site with pictures - sorry. PyFFI and TES4Edit different threads.

Will update the environment section above next.

Thanks for the reply. Your examples above have been a great help. I also finally found some Bainified mods that I could use as actual examples. So far I have only started splitting things up. Is it ok to have mutliple levels of folders in each project/ archive? I will also have to re-zip them as well? Many mods don't seem to have much, if anything, to do with them. I guess it gets hard when you start taking a mod apart like you have with Qarl's (i.e. use this mod's texture for inside, this other one for dungeons, etc). Hopefully, mod makers will start packaging mods to work with bain.

I know my basic questions won't be common for many of the experienced here, but it might help some who are just thinking about modding their install. THanks again.

Tonight I should have Oblivion installed on the laptop to just see if I can get the Bain stuff to work (i'll be at work). I certainly can't play on it for squat. That's for the home machine

Questions are always good - see my signature - was it Confucius who said that it is better to ask a good question that to get the right answer?

That said I'm not sure what you questions are.

Yes to add to an existing BAIN archive or make your own you have to rezip.

I'm not sure what you mean by multiple levels. Have you read the BAIN thread?

Yes it can be time consuming but not horrible so - having disc space helps - more the better.

ok got a particular question. In doing Frans I have 2 BSAs in the core folder. Is that ok? not sure if I need to unpack BSAa or they are handled alright by BAIN.

Should be fine IF they're not two versions of the same BSA (for example Enhanced Weather has two BSAs for texture one regular the other high resolution) - otherwise as long as the files are different and packaged with the correct file paths all should be fine.

Wow offline for two days - damn Cox Communications obsoleting my modem - it's a conspiracy I tell ya!

Nice work so far, dude.

Here's a mod you may want to add to the sounds compilation:

(http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20628)

You are so right.

A few years back, I had the chance to go to rural Arizona. There were no artificial lights for miles. The night sky literally blew my mind! I could actually perceive the third dimension in the stars. I'll never forget the feeling of awe I felt looking up at that night sky in the high desert.

Anyhoo... I'm following this thread, as a long time OBMM OMOD user, I'm glad to see this capability added to Bash.

Yeah this takes time to do though - it isn't like downloading and plug it in and go. takes some testing and all that. So far dividing up replacers is best.

I'm finding that now I even take apart ones that are BAIN to 'improve' them a little. Like adding Darker IC as a sub-package to Better Cities Resources - or adding merge patches in sub-packages to parent mods. Modders could package larger archives this way - so that once it is unzipped archive A might have sub-packages 00-20 and archive B might have 21-40 - for larger - or even for patches - have the patch in a premade sub-package. just unzip them both to the same temp folder the rezip.

Brumbeck's new AWLS pack is very cool.

I also pan to get into doing more mergers and have been slowly testing small mods for a bigger merger - I aspire to Petrus' list.

Wait I think I got one to post ... ahh but tomorrow to tired now.

This thread is awesome, I have got to try these packs and finally let go of my habit of manual installing....

@SkyCaptain It really is like a manual install still, except that BAIN keeps track and lets you revert to a pre-install state. I like Psymon's packs, except for one thing, upgrade time. :toughninja: It would get a bit confusing for me at that point with a pack seperated and spread out among folders. So, in that regard I tend to keep them smaller (per mod) but ordered much like his in install order. BAIN makes it super easy to adjust that way, since you can just right-click and 'move to..' a specific load order number. I am also bad about the tex packs. Once I know I like it, and am gonna keep it, it gets folded into the bsa. I keep backups of the vanilla, and the QTP3 versions, and then my play version is the guinea pig. Not to mention that I have found that that reduces stuttering as well (I should say..on my machine)

But, hats off to you Psymon, Someone had to do it, to show everyone ways it could be done, and to demonstrate its ease, once you are familiar with it. And, you are doing a bang-up job of it. :goodjob:

Edit: I should add, that I am lazy on the 'complicated' mods. (Eg, AWLS, etc) Since they are soo easy to do in Omod, and Bain still records that something has replaced files in its' installs, and since they are tex replacers of a sort, I tend to go that route with them. Only omods I use now are DarkUI, its supplement, AWLS, and Brumbek's pack for it. And when I upgrade them, or add something new and have to reinstall them to modify new windows, it's easier that way. When, and if, scripted installs can be done in BAIN, I will give up. :hehe: