I agree, but there are two major reasons that may have prevented this:

1)Oblivion runs very poorly on most computers and consoles when compared to other games. Additional clutter would only further bog down the systems. The engine is much better optomized with Fallout 3 so it might be more possible today.

2)Impenetrable and cluttered forest doesn't lend itself very well to an openworld set-up. It is very possible, but difficult to make something appear dense but still open enough to not be a pain-in-the-rear.

Both of these need to be considered in the forging of this most epic mod as well.

You speak of grass...........yet Morrowind does not (except with mods).
So Oblivion having boring grass is a problem, yet a complete utter lack of grass is not?

You completely missed the point.
But to miss the point of your response that resulted from missing the point, Morrowind has grass, it's just not 3D.

I'd say that from Anvil east to Chorrol and Skingrad, and up around Bruma should remain the way it is in Oblivion, as whats been shown there is lore correct. But the Great Forest, Heartlands and northeast east and southeast should all be jungle. Basically leave the west and north the way they are in OB, because its lore correct, but edit the center, south and east and make it more jungle.

I agree with this. Though Jungle is a misunderstood term I believe. Jungle doesn't necessarily mean tropical rain forest, it means dense undergrowth and probably tropical foliage. Rain forests usually have limited undergrowth (mostly plants that like shade such as ferns NOT grass) due to the canopy blocking out the sunlight.

The Cyrodil mod will be great no matter how it is done I believe. Zackg just needs to be careful that the transition form snowy mountains and pine tress flows smoothly into the semi-tropical central and southern regions of Cyrodil.

I think that Cyrodiil should definitely be mostly jungle, but a little forest in the north and maybe west.

Ok so after a few days I think the new direction will be as follows:

The north, primarily the Jerall Mountains will remain fairly the same. Snowy, rocky, and with more and more pines the further south you go. 1/3 the way from the Skyrim border to the Imperial City whats primarily pines starts to become a mixed forest. A little further down birch trees began to pop up and pines are substituted out. Closer to the shore north of the Imperial City and the foliae becomes very thick, but not exactly jungle.

The west, the gold coast will also be the same as it was in Oblivion. Moving in the West Weald will be the same also. But the Great Forest will be much thicker. The Redwoods will be more scarce, in favor of a plethora of moss covered trees, both alive and dead, and dense foliage.

tobecontinued for the east and south.

sounds very sensible so far. :foodndrink:

:sadvaultboy:

Moving from the East in towards the Imperial City, the mountain range bordering Morrowind may have a few weird things but not much. Coming down towards the base on a north-south line at cheydinhall, the temperate rainforest will begin. Ill be adding more rivers than Oblivion had. The rainforest will continue and there wont be much of a shore seperating Lake Rumare and the jungle.

From the south moving north, starting by Topal Bay there will be a jungle, and thi junle will contiue north until just around Bravil. The lands across the river from Leyawiin will have a swampy/forested area that will follow up the Argonian border, but will cross the river and have Bravil in a swampy area also. the jungle will go around the swampy area, continuing through northern Elsweyr, north of bravil, and will go all te way up to the imperial city.

I'd like to say, when creating the swampy areas of Cyrodiil, don't look at Oblivion. Create swamps with Bitter Coast models and designs. I want to see a half developed Black Marsh.

Isn't northern Elsweyr desert? The area bordering it should probabily be dry.

Otherwise your plan sounds great Zackg! :goodjob:

Im going to have the elevation rise on the Elsweyr/Cyrodiil border so that the jungle climbs up the hill/small mountain range. On the other side, into Elsweyr as the range goes down the jungle disappears into the desert. Check out the Elsweyr mod for Oblivion for reference.

That's too conservative. MK did specifically say that, when he talked of Cyrodiil having jungles, he meant of the tropical variety, not of the temperate rainforest variety. I'd link you to the post where he said that, but it's been long since pruned away by now.

The jungle in the south, from Leyawiin up to Lake Rumare will be of the tropical variety. The jungle from the east, from the Morrowind border to Lake Rumare, will be temperate.

Sounding good so far. All it needs now is about 483 years of hard work to make it happen.

Actually, Zackg works incredibly fast. don't be surprised if he starts cranking out screens soon! (plus he already has a height map, architecture, etc...)

I'm liking the sound of this so far. I hope the black marsh area looks really wild.

Yeah probably. I think Im just going to abandon the project then, thanks for opening my eyes and saving me the time!

I was thinking more along the lines of turning it into more than a solo effort. That way, 500 modders could have it done in under a year. Either that, or a good random generator to initially place most of it could cut a bazillion hours off the project, then it would "just" be a matter of tweaking all the obviously stupid things the generating routine did.

What are you going to do with Western Cyrodiil?

I hope you didn't mean it when you said you were abandoning this Zackg. There is a lot of interest in this, which is rare for something that would take this amount of work. I know it's a lot of work, but what if you just released it in pieces? That way, even if it doesn't get finished modders still have a land mass to work with. Besides, I doubt you'd be doing this alone.. many of the MW modders feel OB was done in a very shoddy way, and I think, have something they want to prove.

See, I have one problem with 'lore' - it makes no sense that pasty white people would come from a tropical jungle. Jungle's are the home of bronze/brown/black people, not pasty white 'high culture' rich people wearing heavy robes and heavy armors. Both the people, and their clothing/armor styles are completely inappropriate for a hot, sunny, humid jungle.

Even in 'our' world, if you take pasty white people, and move them to a place like Africa, South Asia, the South Pacific, Carribean, or South America, they quickly turn brown from exposure to the sun. Yet that is never how we've seen Imperials portrayed in previous games. They look more like Western Europeans.

I think that Bethesda made the best choice in scrapping a small bit of lore which we'd never seen before, in order to not have to completely change the Imperial 'ethnic' type, clothing, or culture established already in previous titles, including Morrowind.

The west, the gold coast will also be the same as it was in Oblivion. Moving in the West Weald will be the same also. But the Great Forest will be much thicker. The Redwoods will be more scarce, in favor of a plethora of moss covered trees, both alive and dead, and dense foliage.




It was a sarcastic response to somebody elses comment, I was just pointing out how pointless it is for people to come in here and tell somebody how much work is involved when they have never touched this project but I spend near everyday with it and do know its workload.



Fair enough. But just to question, where do snakemen come from? How about catpeople? I think its perfectly reasonable in a fantasy world where the same rules of nature dont always apply, such as the effect of UV rays, that pasty white people can come from a jungle.

In fact, I have been thinking on this, because it bothered me too Moloiriel.

The imperials actually DO have signs they are based off of a druid type race, even in OB. Heck, the king believes in signs and his men say that his line "sees more than average men." They believe the royal family has dragon's blood in them.

Then you think that the royal family is closely linked to "talos" and thus, the empire to "the nine divines." It soon becomes clear that even in a society of heavy armor wielding people the old ways run deep. Now, many of the priests of the nine are indoor pacifist types, but indirectly serve the warriors even while furthering diplomacy. (in the case of Talos and the blades more directly than not though)

It becomes very clear then the in the long past there were groups, possibly almost tribal, who tended to follow one god or another in their respective groups. So my theory is this.. Over time, as they encountered some more vicious creatures and their beliefs developed, they had to become more warlike. Eventually two main groups stood above the rest, and these two had many disagreements with one another. One wished to hide away and not do harm, the other to exist and defend. The latter needed and more or less focused on battle skills and heavy armor. As the need for expansion grew, and creatures were beaten, the more warlike sect won out popularity.. in time they united and almost completely absorbed the less successful groups.

Much like how America is a melting pot of sorts, the imperials still show those influences of the past, but in a much more modern and refined way.

What does this all have to do with the "white and pasty" topic? It's actually easy. If they started as a people who were mostly hidden and mostly used caves and the like, then there instinct and desire for protection would have moved them to having heavier armor faster, and this would have kept their complexion, because they preferred to stay covered in some fashion. Although not normally practical in a jungle, they would not have had choice.. wear armor or die. Can't hide forever, and without natural defenses like the beast races, it's all you can do.

This may even be way the Dragon became in part the symbol of the emperor. After all, a dragon is the biggest, fiercest and most magical beast a druid race could have come up with, especially if they had existed in the area. It would be something to embody courage and power!