Past lore aside, I don't see how a jungle setting is better than a temperate forest setting. It's just personal taste. Although I don't want a game where you have to hack your way through foilage with a blade to get anywhere. It'd be like Cliff Racers all over again.

And even so, it's not like anyone in Tamriel has actually seen what our idea of a "jungle" is.

As for culture ranting, what did you expect? With only two or three topics per person, there wasn't much they could do to develop it.

Geez, people shouldn't judge TES IV by the standards of TES III. And this is still nothing compared to some of the retcons that Blizzard made.

Well, the bliz retcons are a whole different bees nest. IMO, WoW never happened or anything that touched on WoW, only the lore from WCI-III:TFT. And I say, it is a good thing people are comparing them, because the series will sink into just some action adventure game like Serious Sam (which is fun as hell, but that's its own genre, not TES's. And leave insults at the mat about how it already is such a game) if it does not amp up it's lore and immersion.

Well, the past lore IS the reason. I'd rather they stick to the sieries than tell us all to go [censored] ourselves because casual gamers are the new focus of TES.

I expected, on the culture thing, for the same level of quality shown in past bethesda games. That's not what we got.

And why shouldn't we judge a sequel by how it compares to it's predecessor? Give me one good reason why fans shouldn't be disappointed that the sieries they love went from amazing to absolute crap. One. Go ahead.

It didn't go to absolute crap. Oblivion got higher ratings than Morrowind from people more qualified to judge it than we are.

So, wait, some random magazine is "more qualified" to judge how one ES game compares to another after a quick play-through than we do after months? I am failing to see your logic here. It got higher ratings by casual gamers so it somehow does live up to it's predicessors despite the lack of plot, lore, moral ambiguity and depth that it's predecessors had?

yeah, there's something a bit wrong with that.

Tell me, what qualifies somebody more than others in judging games? Having a job at a magazine or a review site? Chances are they don't know half as much about the games as anybody here and I'd take the rating of a hardcoe gamer of the series or lore-folk over that of a 'reviewer' any day...

Dude, drop the conversation. It's hopeless.

Those reviewers can properly judge a game much better than a few lore-obsessed Morrowind fanatics. Myself included.

Disagree. More than any other form of art (I am tempted to say literary, as I feel that particularly games like the elder scrolls are closer to a literary art than a visual art beyond the... you know, visuals... but I'll keep it broad) crticism, video game criticism is a field entirely dedicated to amateurs. This happens because video games are the forefront and vanguard of internet technology regardless of whether or no they are actually played on line - the medium is digital, and because of that the audience confluence is likewise. This means the commentary is by it's nature A: unregulated, B: Unaccredited, and C: Amateur. This does NOT mean that game critics are not "professionals" in what they do, in the sense that it is for some a trade, but the trade and motivations are inculcated by the experience of that person mostly as a gamer, rather than through a degree in any form of journalism or criticism. It is by it's nature Open-Source, and the MOST respected game critics are folks such as Penny Arcade, who simply enjoy gaming as a lifestyle.

http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Amateur-Internet-Killing-Culture/dp/0385520808, by Andrew Keen has a lot of insightful things to say about how the confluence of Web 2.0 mentality and open source as it applies to the internet's neojournalistic establishment, which as I postulate is best captured with video game reviews.

If you're interested.

:clap: This is precisely the problem. Do you not understand?



Yeah, I'd say they can. However, they can't judge a TES game better than lore-obsessed TES fanatics.

'Cos if I'm looking for a nice first-person beat-'em-up with a mildly interesting story and some schweet dungeon looting action, Oblivion is my first stop. That's what the reviewers saw. Oblivion the game. What people come to this forum to discuss, however (and particularly this sub-forum), is TES the world, to which Oblivion is a very poor homage. :shrug:

You didn't answer the question of why...

I'd also say that The Crustacean put it very nicely as to why not...

"Never give up. Never surrender."

No, lore obsessed TES fanatics can judge a TES game's story, lore, and setting better, but TES are games, not simply stories. Bethesda isn't writing a story, they're making games with stories in them. Reviewers are better at reviewing games.

I do believe I just said that.

This topic, and this forum, is not about Oblivion, the game. It is about TES, the world, and the homage to that world that is the game 'The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion', and how it is less than satisfactory in that role of homage.

Like I said, if I'm looking to "ride around on a horse killing things", then Oblivion is my game. I have no complaints about Oblivion, the game (until someone sticks the 'RPG' label on it), but I do have complaints about its place in the series of homages (must...find...synonym) of which it claims to be the fourth.

Cyrodill

The current Cyordiil


1) Lore states it should be a jungle, therefore, it should be a jungle. Lore is indeed the only reason for this, just as if there was going to be a skyrim game and they made it sunny and tropical, people would be pissed because lore states it should not be so
2) Part of the problem is that there is indeed only two or three topics per person
3) All sequels should be judged by their predecessors. I wouldn't compare them to anything other then that. Sure, Oblivion is a good game with tons of lore, if you compare it to Asteroid, but not compared to Daggerfall or Morrowind


More qualified to judge a game than me? What does Game Informer, or any other video game judging media have that makes them more qualified to judge anything than me? Especially an Elder Scrolls game? The dedicated fans who post here are the number one judges, as they are the most knowledgeable to the subject. Letting other people judge an Elder Scrolls game would be like letting the cooks down at Taco Bell judge Iron Chef America. Sure they know know about food, but not the kind of food Iron Chef makes


TES games arent games with stories in them, they are stories with games built around them.

The thing is, because TES is such a great story, is what makes it so freaking great from the 1000s of other RPGs! You can take a good game mechanics and such, but with terrible immersion and story, and it is a bullet in the eyes for an RPG (Role Playing Game!). A game with great immersion and story can make a RPG with not the greatest mechanics pretty damn interesting. This is not just a game, it is an RPG! It has a story, with a game around it!

I'd say I say most of my views of OB with this game reviewer =O http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion

I don't care about Cyrodiil being a jungle. It is really that exciting? A different kind of forest? The only difference is more rainfall and less sever seasonal differences.

So no. Jungle doesn't matter.

What does matter is this:


And that determines everything else, the insulation of the Nedes and inwardness of the Nibeneans, the economy, the religion, the cultural attitudes. With such a physical difference between Colovia and Nibenay they cannot help but be radically different places. The jungle is not trees with bigger leaves, it is the interplay and the rivers and the central feature that makes Cyrodiil what it is. Not just trees. I don't care about trees.

If you want trees, go to Black Marsh; that has hardly any roads, endless water and trees, uninhabitable places, and stuff. Too bad everyone dies as you go into the deeper swamps due to disease and poison.

Oh yes.

Seconded. Kind of.
If you remember, Morrowind was supposed to be nothing more than a dusty pile of ash. What we saw in the game was a (somewhat, at least) varied environment, with swamps, steppes, farmlands, and of course - ash. They still had the tough Ashlanders, struggling in the middle of the wasteland, but they also had Ashlanders living in more beneficial places, like the Grazelands. It gave the whole setting much more believability - and added feeling to the game, as well as helped feeling for the people in it.

The point is - the scenery doesn't matter that much. The scenery comes after the story. And the story defines the people actors, or the NPCs.
Really, if they only would have come up with a believable world and culture, I wouldn't mind at all. Not having so many forts and putting them at the right, as in strategically, places. At least an attempt to show from where Cyrodiil gets its food. Roads that lead out of the province. Stuff like that. For the scenery, that is.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any jungle at all. I'm just saying that lore has been changed before. But then it was to flesh the existing lore out. Now, instead, it was changed so that they did not have to change things.
As Paws said, it's not about the jungle. It's about what is dependant on it being a jungle.

I really enjoyed playing in the present Cyrodiil. If it made sense as a setting and actually added something to Tamriel, I wouldn't mind the climate. But somehow they spent all their effort on the physical gameworld and when it came to filling in the rest, suburban Maryland stepped through the portal and took root.

Maybe I'm just repeating myself, but if Beth would give Tedders and MK free reign on the next game, I would buy 30 copies of the [censored] thing just so the company wouldn't worry so much about the financial aspect of it.

(although I'm sure 30 copies more or less in sales won't make a big difference, but you get what I'm saying, no?)


___TWM

There are a handful of other devs I'd like to see back as well...

Morrowind 3 then instead of an Elder Scrolls 3?

Funny you should say that, when the entire thread is about Oblivion definitely NOT being Morrowind 2.

actually, suburban maryland is more jungly then cyrodiil is

but thats quite besides the point. if youre bringing back cyrodiil, do it not through jungles but through culture.