Wulf is pretty much the man. He definitely helps you defeat Dagoth Ur by giving you that Lucky Coin...

Which hilariously enough helps to speed along Dagon's invasion, since without Red Tower, the barriers were already weakened.

Do you think the old man Tiber Septim did that on purpose?

Basically this is like the heartburn commercial, Hairdo. Do you want the world to be taken over now (by Lord Voryn Dagoth AKA Dagoth Ur) or later (by Mehrunes Dagon).

Automatic placement has little to do with how boring the landscape is. Its merely a tool, and like any tool, the results are in the hands of the user.

:nod:

True. What I was saying was that, in order to get good results (as far as "procedural" generation goes), it would've been best to create more powerful tools for that. You could probably get good results with the tool that is present with many passes and very carefully tweaked values, but likely that'd be less efficient. (The debate shifted a little when it was mentioned that hand-placing everything isn't exactly time-efficient. I was proposing how they could have potentially created a much more high quality landscape and still be able to save loads of time that total manual placement of everything otherwise would have taken, rather than just saving loads of time at a huge cost to quality or having loads of quality at a huge cost to time.)

Urgh, another Oblivion vs Morrowind thread.

Oblivion does some things better than Morrowind
Morrowind does some things better than Oblivion

TESV is going to pwn them both

Can we all agree?

I will answer each question one at a time.

"Why is a jungle, by default, an interesting place?"

Because relatively by default places with life are interesting. An area with more life is more interesting. If you have ever lived in a jungle like some of us, and also lived in a desert like some of us (I have done both, lived in Maui, Hawaii and the High Desert in Central Oregon) we can tell you there is a very big difference with foliage and climate. You will notice that jungles have inherently greater variety of wildlife and foliage and are also "by default" inherently more interesting. Another good comparison is the difference between life in fresh water and life in the sea. I have explored both and life in the sea is almost, dare I say, infinity more interesting than the life in fresh water.

Your statement "Endless jungle means the same bland, repetitive terrain everywhere" would be easy to ignore if it were a matter of opinion, but it isn't. What you said isn't true and in fact jungles provide very great opportunities for foliage to grow, and places where I lived like Maui (where initially nothing is actually native, everything is from other parts of the world) everything can grow there. I have seen foliage from all parts of the world find a very easy life growing in the tropics.

I'm sorry if my reply sounds hostile, but I had to bring out the gross exaggeration and untruth in the information you provided.

What about rainforests? Notice just how diverse the rainforest area(Bethesda called it this, not me) in southern Cyrodiil is. Where are the typical rainforest creatures? I repeat with a little rephrasing to fit the context. Why does a jungle, by default, make an interesting gameworld? This is a video game series. Bethesda doesn't have to put any wildlife in a jungle if they don't want to, and they could also place leprechauns and wolves in a jungle if they wanted to. Bethesda didn't add a realistic amount of variety to their swamps, mushroom-treed areas, deserts, or even forests in the past. What makes you think that Bethesda making a jungle would be any more interesting? It's just a terrain type. Describe Vvardenfell's swamp's bestiary to someone who actually lives in a swamp. I would expect a "what the hell is a netch" response. Confirmation of jungle terrain in a gameworld means nothing in terms of creature types and diversity.

its mainly that most of us don't see jungles all that often, but temerate forests are found very near most massive, english-speaking, areas.

Is Oblivion THE most criticezed game.... ever?

Just in the TES world! I kind of find it funny.

If I never played a TES game before and I picked up a copy of Oblivion, I would think it's was the greatest game ever.

Everybody here compares the last 3 TES games and FO to each other, it's like taking the world's top 4 swimsuit models and comparing them every day in a forum, over and over again. Everyone else would be complaining about everybody elses # 1. Yet if you randomly run into one of the top 4 models walking down the street, not knowing anything about her a head of time, you would think she was the hotest thing on the sidewalk.

As far as the OP's point, Cyrodiil was not what I pictured in my head. The picture in my was an Amazon looking jungle, with giant structures protruding out of the treeline. But that was my picture, so blame myself for the disapointment, not Beth.

*sigh* Technically, Proweler, I'm simply saying that the arguments about TES games are always the same, and still, years after Oblivion's release, people are still complaining about it not measuring up to Morrowind. I'm not trying to stretch anything beyond the bounds of game discussion. And yes, I do shrug off the low points of these discussions. If I didn't I'd be nerd-raging on everything I disagree with, which thankfully I don't.

Close enough to post count. Just another thread where the MW and OB fans line up on opposite sides to shoot at each other. No right and no wrong. Just differences of opinions and for this we treat one another like trash.

Let's give this one a rest folks. It's inflamatory, it's rolled in newspaper and kindling and ready to become an inferno.