It's been mentioned numerous times that Daedra have caused havoc in various ways. In "Beggar Prince", it's mentioned that before current days the Gods and Daedra walked Nirn as men do.

Now, as we all know Daedra are extremists of different aspect. Mehrunes loves his destruction, Namira loves ugly things and darkness, Azura loves... love, etc. They all require things of mortals, but they all represent things. Now, when somebody turns mad, is that Sheogorath reaching down and effecting them, or is he giggling in glee as it happens?

In the Monomyth, it mentions:


When you visit Sheogorath's shrine he says:


Implying that he is capable of altering your mind. But then it's mentioned that the Daedra are all banished to Oblivion, and they require mortals to do these tasks for them instead of going out and doing it themselves.

So basically what I'm asking is: Do Daedra affect everyday life, making people go crazy, making them have nightmares, making people tell lies and spin webs of deceit, making people take chances they normally wouldn't risk, making people be hedonistic, etc.? Or are they just the spirits that embody & represent the extremes of all of these things?

No, they do not control mortal existence.

The spheres are constructs of a godhead in deep psychosis. Mortals are the godhead's interaction with these spheres. Don't need to complicate matters by dividing the avatars from the spheres. Not that you can.

Aren't the spheres parts of the Daedra themselves?

What I mean is... in the context of Nightmares: Is it Vaermina giving you that nightmare, does she control what happens in your nightmare, or are you having a nightmare as a result of her existence? If there was no Vaermina, would nightmares exist? Did Vaermina create nightmares? Or does Vaermina just have some strange thing for nightmares?

Do they create the existence of these things they encompass, or are they the embodiment of the things they represent?

Is Mehrunes Dagon destruction, or does he just represent destruction?

I'm sorry if you answered my question but it was kind-of hard to tell what you meant with "Mortals are the godhead's interaction with these spheres.". I was under the impression that the Mortals were the decedents of the "lesser spirits" that went to Nirn, the Ehlnofey.

The spheres are the Daedra. I misunderstood you.


Vaermina does not give you nightmares. She did not create nightmares. Anu and Padomay did, by creating Anuiel, oversoul of creation.

Vaermina is nightmares. It is not in the providence of any Prince to give, only to exist. Mortals interpret and take. The Oblivion Crisis was mortal aggression.


Being destruction, he represents it to the mortals.


's alright. This is true, but these are myths to express the inexpressible. Inexpressible, because it would crush the spirit who realizes they're a god-brain fart. Also known as Zero-sum.

I try to avoid invoking Anu and Padomay, simply because unlike the Aedra and Daedra, there is very, very little I know of that suggests their existence is anything more than a mortal-made creation myth and attempt to classify the greater powers out there.

That's the point. That's what gives them power/persistent relevance: idolatry. Belief. As I said, the the godhead is classifying these things, through mortals. That is Nirn's purpose.

Anu's name is now Boogie-snatch, and Padomay's is Thrust-paladin.

Please forgive me, Martut.

Ah, I get what you're saying now. So they, in a sense, are these things. That makes things complicated then, I'm amazed at how deep and interesting TES lore is! So when you speak of... Mephala, she/he is lies, deceit, trickery, murder, etc. They're like the... the embodiment of existence of these things.


Ah. What I love about TES lore is that you can't trust everything you read.


It's fine

Yes.

So in otherwords would Vaermina not exist if say no living creature had a nightmare? Or Mehrunes wouldn't if man and other creatures didnt destroy things? Or Boethiah wouldn't if there wasnt assassinations or conspiracy?
kind of confusing.

They would exist, but very weakened to the point are not really being there, as they are not concepts recognized by mortals. The princes we know about are there, because the concept they embody are known. Or at least that's what I think the explanation is.

I'm going to put this in a way that can be understood by everyone (I'm going to use Mehrunes Dagon as an example). Mehrunes Dagon's sphere is: Destruction, Revolution (I'm not sure if that's it, but moving on). Mehrunes Dagon is destruction and destruction is Mehrunes Dagon.

Reader: What the f---- does that mean?

Simple... Mehrunes Dagon is the "personification" (Or Mehrunes Dagonification, in this case) of destruction. That is why Mehrunes Dagon is an immortal god. The only way to "kill" a Daedric Prince is by destroying it's sphere. In other words: The only way to remove Mehrunes Dagon from existence is by destroying, forgetting and never remembering his sphere. But I'm sure destroying all concepts of destruction and revolution are a very easy thing to do.

Here's an example: Don't think about destruction and revolution.

...
...

What are you thinking about?

Your pretty hat.

I think that mortal myth only affects those who took part in the Divine Pact.

No, because mortal myth exists to explain the Daedra as well. I believe the Daedra would cease to be. Without mortals, there are no "not our ancestors." They would return to the rivers of the previous kalpa, as et'Ada.

By Divine Pact, do you mean the Convention?

So there could be Princes that are locked away and hidden because those things don't technically exist?

...

Could those be the Daedra that follow other Daedric Princes because they get lost in the waters of Oblivion and need a way to find their way into existence (A.K.A. Allying themselves with a Daedric Prince)

So technically, could that Dremora Churl you're summoning to be the Prince of [Insert Nonexistent Thing] here?

No. They don't exist.

Ah, gotchya.

According to some accounts, though, the Daedra predated mortals. For that matter, so did the Aedra, back when both were et'Ada. But the Daedra sat out of it when the Aedra took part in the convention. Thus, the Aedra became bound to Nirn, and seemingly this is what gave birth to the power of myth on Nirn. I have a few theories on how myth shapes things, but I'm convinced it does not extend beyond the Mortal Plane.

The Daedra Princes retained their power when the Aedra gave up parts of themselves, and for them mortal worshipers are not a need but a want.


Yes.

I remember reading that the Daedra had fun with their own creations for a while, but were intrigued by the ambitions of mankind, and liked to take them away from the Aedra.

Without mortals, there are no "not our ancestors." They would return to the rivers of the previous kalpa, as et'Ada.


It's all superstition, anyway.

You already know I adhere to the axis mundi model, so I won't discuss it further. Why not link to your ideas?

Destruction is one of the few things that cannot be destroyed...because it requires the act you're trying to erase.

A mortal cannot affect the existence of these concepts, since the mortals have no knowledge of the origin of the concept. To destroy a Daedra you'd have to destroy the origin of the concept. This is why Oblivion exist beyond mortals. Think about it, you live in a totally pacifist society, your people are so anti-violent that you don't even cut plants for nutrition you simply "share" there nutrients, basically you have no concept of even the slightest destruction, but violence still exists.


You cannot destroy the very idea of a Daedric Prince simply by forgetting about them imo. The existence of the idea is not changed by forgetful mortals. It is the same with any knowledge or idea you don't know about.

Ha, that remembers me the example of "If a tree falls off in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it fall, does it emit any sound?".

If some idea or knowledge exists, but no one remembers or knows it, does it continue existing?

Isn't destroying a daedra kind of what Jyggalag and Sheogorath were trying to do? It seems every time one of them came into power he tried to wipe out all memories and traces of the other.

I've always seen Daedric Princes to actually BE what they are. For example, Sheogorath IS insanity. Dagon IS destruction. The Avatar, what you see, is actually the representation of the Prince, or, in other words, the representation of insanity, or destruction.

I've always saw the Princes as the personification of a thing. Dagon is the personification of destruction, as Sheogorath is the personification of insanity etc.

This is all my theory, though. I'm not too sure what it says in lore, if anything.