In the Lore is it possible for a mortal powerful and wicked enough to become a daedra prince, almost like Tiber Septim that became an Aedra? If not a prince, maybe become something like a daedra lord or noble?

I remember reading a ingame book that said it could happen.

I'm a bit rusty on my Lore skills at the moment but I dont think so really, you can [walk like (insert name), until (insert name) walks like you? (correct?)] which in other words would be "Mantle" the Prince but not become a whole new one I believe.

Please correct me if I'm totally of the wheel here please.

I believe SI touched on this.

Maybe. Maybe not. That certainly works with Aedra and other such spirits but the Daedra are truly immortal and ARE their respective spheres. For instance Dagon IS Destruction. Sheogorath IS Madness. The only reason the player character could mantle Sheogorath at all is that the current body for Madness happened to be Order with amnesia. In the absence of Order, a new person had to stand in for Madness. The identity of the body is irrelevant though, because that person is simply the face for Madness.


Sheogorath is the Shivering Isles, not the little bearded man on the throne. Remember that. I think that's the definition of a Daedric Prince and why ideas such as killing them or replacing them are absurd. You can't kill a Concept, a Force, an Idea... (Mr. Creedy, Ideas are bulletproof.)

Well, the very landscape turned into crystalline order while Jyggy was making his way in. By the end of the SI MQ, the place was restored back into the Shivering Ilse when Jyggy was defeated by the hero of Cyrodil. the way I see it as, I think Sheogorath tried to get the hero to mantle him, so that the Prince of Madness will remain when he is gone. Its all about symbols, and the HoC will probably grow into it, or it grows into the hero.

You have to usurp one, unless you can invent New Age music and market it so that it becomes cosmologically and psychologically ubiquitous to all of creation as a force of nature. Yeah...

The HOC will almost certainly grow into it, because if it were the latter, there'd be trouble implementing the daM doG in later games. Otherwise, I agree with you.

I saw, "let a man be judged by his actions." If the HoC completes all the quests in-game, and we review his accomplishments, then we see a clearly painted picture of someone who is bat-(censored) crazy. Divine crusader and listener of the DB. Blessed hero and master thief. Savior of the realm and one who does favors for daedra. Yep. He's nuts. Prime candidate for a Sheo-substitute. Yeah, I think the role will grow on the HoC, but I do believe the HoC is already on the path to madness long before setting foot within the isles.

Welllll, he's both the bearded man on the throne AND the Shivering Isles. Lords are their spheres and their avatars.

Considering the particulars surrounding the "ascension" of the "past" Sheog, e.g. the Duke of Mania/Dementia (Arden Sul) and the removal of their hearts by themselves, I have no qualms accepting that mortals, themselves the epitome of Uncertanty (Sheog's sphere), can become the God of Uncertainty as well.

Ah yes I know that the Lords IS their realms and such, I was just very uncertain about the whole Mantle part. But thanks for the posts.

Heh. I hadn't quite thought it out that way, but its true enough. I suppose one would have to be a little crazy to willing enter Oblivion, anyway, and all the wierd ass stuff to see there probably doesn't help your mental stability.

I know. My DB listener only did it to gain political leverage with Martin when he became emperor. Well, that plan didn't work out in the end, what with Martin dragon-morphing himself. :meh:

Anyone can be a Daedric Prince. Although the misconception is how to become one.

I don't think anyone knows because it's never happened before. Not even Jyggalag was sure what you were at the end of SI. Although if Tiber Septim could become a god I don't see why anyone couldn't become a Daedra, especially seeing how the other Princes have the power to change one another, I don't think transcending a mortal would be as hard in comparision.

Agreed. But I am going to say that you can, to an extant, kill a Daedric Prince.

Sheo is Madness. But what is Madness? One can say Madness is mental insanity AND madness as in chaos. Or that Madness is just mental insanity. Ideas and concepts can be changed. They are bullet proof, but not prone to change, now are they? To a mortal on Nirn, Sheo is everything that the mortals think Madness is. But change their mind on what Madness is, and they see Sheo to be that new understanding that you forced on them. That reshapes the Prince, doesnt it?. Doing this again and again over time with an intent to further disfigure the Prince will affect the said Prince and change them unless Princes are absolutes and cannot change AT ALL, or do not change simply because mortal understanding of them changes. Now I am going to say that how mortals see, or dont see, the Princes does change the Prince, and thus this whole thing crumbles. But as it was said once, you kill them if you can turn them into something else first, preferably something killable. Take the big L, Lorkhan(I know, not a Prince, but for the illustration purposes) for example. He is not exactly himself now, is he ? Do something like that to a Prince and presto, you are on your way to killing them... I think.

Translation? :unsure:


Transcending of a mortal is not a problem, be it by mortals choosing or at the whim of the gods, I think. Tiber, Vivec... but they are not Daedric Princes. Daedric Princes have their own speheres and ARE their own spheres and ARE the Idea and Concept that their spheres stand for and are. To be a Daedric Princes, a mortal would need to become a new spehere, a new whole [Spehere+Concept+Idea] or take place of an existing Prince and become that spehere. And thats like, impossible, I think. Now, I want to see how this can be done, if it can be done... would be a fun thing to see. But Daggerfall made a point that impossible is nothing in TES universe, so who knows.

You have to take over an existing sphere, because that's where the power comes from. Ignore the rest.

Ignore it? NO! I'd rather Google all the unfamiliar words... and I did . I still dont get the reference or point of New Age part unless that refers to the idea of mortals transcending to a Prince status just because they will so as if it was a natural order of things because it is within a mortal to be able to do that. In which case all thats left is for you to find someone who can introduce that to, and into, Nirn. In which case... wait... I see I just answered my own question. :wacko: -_- :facepalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_age_music

I wasn't being that serious. You have to usurp an existing sphere, because it would be rather difficult to make a new one. (The color Beige is now a fundamentally important idea that is essential to all life and found everywhere)

As opposed to some time back when it wasnt even a color or didnt not yet reach the status of such importance? :unsure:

Usurp a sphere and then walk like them until they must walk like you.

Yeah, I remember reading a book while playing Morrowind that said the reseaon why the pretty much crucify and humilulate deadra worshipers, is because the afterlife kind of works in a karma sense, if you were particularlly evil and powerful that in the afterlife of Oblivion you would become a daedra lord, or something similar. So I guess If you were epic to the max, and overthrew another Daedra Lord in his own home, you may possibly become a daedra lord.

Then you most be extremely evil. But you would more or less "add" to the Daedra Lords influence then become one.

This raises the question; what was the state of the Sphere of Madness before Jyggalag was cursed?

It was Exactness, that is, the state of Mundus in the absense of static change.

Madness is Uncertainty. Uncertainty is Madness. Uncertanty is ALSO static change.

If I am not mistaken, only Sheogorath himself could use his staff. And once Sheogorath transformed into Jyg, the staff would vanish as well. So the staff is part of Sheo, in every respect. In which, if I remember correctly, it already had, which causes Sheo to send the CoC on the quest to form a new staff. Which, eventually, is dipped in the font and transforms into the new Staff, re-opening the office of Sheogorath. However, Jyg had come full-force by that time. Being the staff is connected to Sheogorath, it is now connected to the CoC, who took the office and throne. (The actual throne being the Staff, imo.) The staff didn't/doesn't disappear because Sheogorath lives again, in the form of "you."

Speaking of Spheres, the Sphere of Madness is supposed to disappear (Transform) during Jyg's return, every time. The only way to prevent it is for someone else to become Sheogorath. I don't think someone merely taking the title of office could do it. Only by taking complete control over the Sphere, essentially combining "life forces" can it halt the attempts of Jyg. Because, otherwise, the Sphere would cease to exist, as well. (Again, since Jyg now "lives.")