Okay, bear with me here, this is just some idea I want to explore.

The "blessing" mortals have over other beings is that they have a full range of personalities and ideas available to them, from lowest to highest, best to worst. While they all have just one (well, maybe a few in the case of multiple personality disorders, but that's a different can of worms) personality themselves, a mortal being could have had any one of them.

Contrast this with a Daedroth Prince. They do have "full" personality, of course, in fact one that is far deeper than any one full personality of a human. However, it is bound to a much more narrow range of options from rebirth to banishment. If you go with the dreamsleeve bit, a mortal will be spat back out with any personality possible, and the ability to have that changed and reformed without any sort of restriction outside of themselves (and even if, like me, you don't give much to the dreamsleeve, any new mortal born would have the same set of options). The Princes, by a set of mythic rules, will always have a set of parameters that they must adhere to as they return. Molag Bal must always be an embodiment of corruption. While there are always variations within each time he returns, there would be that unshakeable constant. Same with all the others, even the more "pleasant" Princes are stuck.

This leads me to the idea that they are somewhat jealous of Mortals, hence thier meddling in the mortal world. Azura is petty and easily prone to overreactive jealousy because she is already so. As a smart Prince, she may have discovered that her followers, even the reincarnated ones, have an infinite range of highs and lows, kindnesses and cruelties, while she has only one possible set with slight variations between any individual possibility. Dagon enjoys destroying things in the mortal realm more than others because he hates that he will never have the freedom inherent in the short, futile lives of mortal men. They meddle because they are jealous, and rankle at thier own lack of freedom.

So what do you think of my idea?

Thats true for all spirits (incl. the gods) though. All spirits are just ideas. Molag Bal is not only Prince of Corruption, he IS the very concept of Corruption himself. Hence, its also true for the Aedric side, the Nine Divines and the Earth Bones. As for the mortals... *mumbles something about Nirn, the divinity of the mortals and stuff*... uh, no sorry, I dont know why they are as they are But as said, this nature of the Daedra is not exclusive to the Daedra. And from what we know they meddle in creation to further mock the already fallen Aedra: "Look how stupid you were to sacrifice yourself for creation, and now we hold power in your creation while having sacrificed nothing!"

Not really. They're not really jealous as much as fascinated at them. I guess that to the immortal daedra, looking at Nirn is like looking at a freak show. They don't want to be in a freak's position, but they're fascinated and disgusted simultaneously by them. And also like freaks, they're fascinated at what kind of bizarre things they do. Mortals are feeble, transients entities, which contrasts to a daedroth's fundamental nature. But, what they're even more interested as why in their despicable state that mortals don't despair. They change and grow, and the whole choice thing gives both an opportunity, where the daedra seduce mortals for power, and a headache, where the daedra are constantly humiliated by mortal heroes.

In my opinion it seems that the Daedric Princes represent the types of traits humans despise (vanity, decietfulness, cruelty, etc), while the Nine Divines represent the traits humans seem to admire (mercy, loyalty, trustworthiness, etc). I think both Gods have traits that are in a lot of humans, but mortals perfer the Nine because they have the traits people are attracted to, while the Daedric Princes are consider unattractive and sometimes "evil".

The Daedra also love interacting with each other. There is the rivalry in the Shivering Isles between the Mazken and Auriel that have nothing to do with mortals, there is the reason why Vaernima would have the cure for Vampirism when you want it in Morrowind (gotten through Molag Bal) (although one could argue that that was leverage for any mortal who wanted it). The instances of purely Daedra vs Daedra are few and far between (as we do not have reliable intelligence on their petty squabbles), but they exist and they have little if nothing to do with mortals.

I like to think that maybe they have full personalities - but, like any human being, they have their own unique traits and quirks. In other words, they can have a 'full' personality without all being the same. Some people are flirts, some aren't. Some are malicious, others are kind. Some giggle at wanton destruction and explosions; other people prefer stability. Some like to gossip and plot, others like direct confrontation. Some like to dominate others with brute force, some like to subvert their victims.

I guess I just don't want the Daedric Princes to turn into something as 1 dimensional as the 'gods' in DnD, which have their portfolios that dictate their actions - no personality other than the cliche/stereotype that their portfolio would produce.

I don't think the Daedra are motivated by jealousy. Or not most of them, and then not solely.

From one angle, they are their spheres and their spheres are them. Those spheres extend to the Mundus (though not bound like the Aedra), hence the meddling (which is really just the natural projection of their spheres' influence).

From another, mortals are in their image. Daedra are Big Spirits, mortals are Little ones, bastardized over many generations. It would be in keeping with this for Daedra to have personalities that are not disimilar from those of mortals - but here I think it depends on the Daedra. For example, I would not expect compassion or gentleness from the likes of Mehrunes Dagon or Molag Bal and I wouldn't think it likely that Sanguine goes through long stoic periods of self-restraint, etc. Other Daedra Princes, whose personalities are not so bound up in there spheres, may have the full emotional spectrum.

(OT - Damn, this reminds me, we need some more Peryite lore. He remains a mystery without hooks. Someone page Mr Kirkbride!)

Susano and 4LOM stated it best:

The daedra are the physical (or meta-physical) manifestations of different aspects that are associated with change. Thus, the daedra naturally seek to spread the influence of their sphere, because, as the forces of change, such is the purpose of their existence. In other words, they seek to assert their existence simply for the sake of acknowledgeing their own existence.

Therefore, although they are the manifestations of these aspects of change, the daedra are not subject to change themselves (only speaking in terms of the spheres they represent). Due to the fact that they are the "aspects" of change, they simply cannot reform their sphere, unless it is within their sphere to do so. I believe that is something similar (or at least relates), to what 4LOM said concerning certain Daedra experiencing a wider range of emotions.

So Lycanthropic, you are correct in your observation that the princes are "stuck".

However, I must state that it is not jealousy that is the stiumli for the daedra to involve themselves or meddle in 'earthly' affairs, but rather it is their very nature that forces them to do so. For example, if a daedric prince's sphere was jealousy, then, obviously, the daedra would eventually be forced to involve itself in the lives of mortals, because all mortals feel jealousy, and all mortals give acknowledgement to jealousy.

A better example would be Mephala, the Webspinner. (She) is the Daedric Prince of conspiracy (for the most part), and, as shown throughout ES history, (she) has been involved in mortal affairs time and time again. Why is this? This is because conspiracy is a mortal subject. Therefore, she is naturally drawn to events that involve conspiracy and deciet. It is her very nature that makes her involved.

The same is true for all Daedra, fascination aside (or not, depending on how you view 'fascination').

Youre kinda too late for that. Thats not what the Daedra could turn into, thats what the Daedra are. And the Aedra, too, and as said, just about any god and spirit. With one difference: In DnD, a god really merely rules its portfolio, which allows several gods to have the same portfolio as long as they are in different pantheons. In TES, the spirits ARE their portfolio, that is they are the incarnation of their portfolio (well, incarnation is the wrong word, as first there was the concept before there was anything material to it, but well, you get the idea).

But, I've read the books about the Daedra, and there isn't anything that says what you are saying. There isn't anything that says that the Daedra and Aedra are limited by their spheres, and cannot be more than the spheres. What is written is the Nirn/mortals' perspective - a limited perspective. Just because there is a dearth of lore on the Daedric Princes interactions/motivations/psychology doesn't mean that the Princes lack such depth; It just means that it hasn't been explored yet.

As said, the Daedra are just et'ada, spirits. Theyre just those spirits that did not take part in the creation of the world - thats the only difference they have to Aedra. In the end, theyre all et'ada. And that et'ada are just ideas, as the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml tells us. Thats why the Aedra had to sacrifice themselves for creation in Lorkhans creation conjob: The concepts of those et'ada that partook in the creation of the world became concepts of the world (and, it seems, the concepts of those daedric et'ada that were caught inbetween the spokes of the wheel, too).

The Daedra almost seem like AIs -- intelligent without being fully human, and more restricted than mortals.

A: Holy crap this is still going? and B:



That is actually what gave me the idea: The Freelancer AIs from RvB: Reconstruction. I then moved the idea from there around, and determined that yes, a daedra prince (NOT any Daedra, they have a different set of rules) has a full personality of its own, but is stuck with just that, and would always have been stuck with it (excluding Malacath and Dagon, since they are/were something else between et'Ada proper and Daedra Prince), wheras humans could have been any of an infinite number of options from birth to death, not just what they actually wound up becoming.

Ask a patriarch or moderator. I'm absolutely sure that there are books confirming our information. The first one to look at is the Monomyth.

Also, I don't believe that the Aedra function the same way as the Daedra do. While the Aedra do represent a universal aspect (as the universe was born from them after all), they do not have personalities that are completely limited to them. They cut off of a piece of themselves to create the Mundus and, therefore, because the pieces were severed, they no longer have any sovreignty over them. That means that they have no control over the Mundus, and it also means that the Aedra are free to change without altering the aspects of the world.

So, to sum it up:

Daedra are their spheres (worlds), hence they cannot change.

Aedra are seperate entities from the Mundus (crafted from severed pieces of their beings), so therefore, they can change.

Not they sacruificed themselves. They are NOT free of Mundus, bute xactly the other way around - they are bound to Mundus (via the gift spokes of the Wheel), and hence Mundus' gods over the aspects they once represented.

The thing is, if you make them less complex than humans (mortals, whatever), things get really boring. There's no unpredictability at all - and the Daedric Princes, while they do have their strong character traits, seem able to cogitate, have whims, and plan for future events. If they are primitive AIs, then you can easily push a daedric prince's buttons and know what will come out. Their interactions would be like chemical equations - predictable, known, no mystery at all.

I could be wrong. :shrug: But I think it'd be more interesting if the Daedra and Aedra are more complex than mortal minds.

They ARE more complex! The thing is, they have no freedom as to what that depth is going towards, where a human can be deep and complex in any number of directions, and not only that, they can chanhe midlifetime to something else, just as complex. The daedra princes, though deep individually, are stuck with that particular personality for all of eternity. Don't you think you'd get jealous if someone else was free to change and you weren't?

This gives me another idea: Maybe that's another reason they change the world? Because they are incapable of self-change?

Bleh. That would just make them powerful humans. Thered be nothing mystical about the gods then. The Greek Pantheon stinks

I'm not talking about power. If you had the ability to traverse another dimension (as in 1D, 2D, 3D.... nth dimension), your perception of time and space would be different. Your thought processes would be different - alien.

Take, for the sake of a possibly well known example, the character Dr. Manhattan from the comic book Watchmen. He occupies all points in time. The authors of the book tried to convey this by a stream-of-consciousness inner monologue, where, by our perception of time, his thoughts appear to be in the future and the past all at once...

So, what I'm saying is, if if the Daedric Princes interact with more planes and dimensions of existence than mere mortals can perceive, then (regardless of their power) their thought processes will be very different from human (mortal, Nirnian) thought processes.

I'd make a tenuous proposition that perhaps something like this is the case for the Daedric Princes: the realms of the Princes are the Princes. Yet, they are able to occasionally manifest on Nirn. If the layering of Oblivion from Nirn is anything like parallel/other dimensions (see the Nova Special on String Theory), then when a Daedric Prince enters Nirn -say, for instance, Dagon - he is warping space. He is in his realm AND SIMULTANEOUSLY also on Nirn. Because he doesn't seem to be freaking out, he must have the capacity to understand what is going on with his essence/body...

Sorry, too early in the morning/too soon after I woke up to really explain this very well.

You can call it "complex" but the daedra mental processes are at least alien. But in terms of their nature, then an infinite lifetime doesn't make you anymore creative.

I find them a lot like the Greek pantheon, but a lot less childish. Greek gods are nothing but children with super powers (aside for being really horny too). Daedra have similar traits with the Greek gods, but not as childish and more extreme in their field (although they still [censored] joust from time to time)

Uh, yeah actually. You're right about that. I just realize the idiotic paradox of my statment.

However, uh...I think you're trying to say that the Aedra didn't sacrifice themselves. Not fully true. They most certainly did sacrifice themselves, if not wholly, partially. That's the principle of why Lorkhan's heart was torn from his being and banished to the Mundus.