First thing I'd like to state:

Sheogorath isn't represented well in SI. He only shows one side of insanity. Hopefully, if he's in another game, he'll show his dark side, and not just use his paranoid, schizophrenic side to crack jokes and for punch lines. Sheogorath is often a bad in guy in TES pre-SI. He was the one who threw the Ministry of Truth at Vivec! So no Sheogorath is funny opinions.

Anywhoo..

Thought I'd make a thread about the Daedric Lords in TESV. I saw another thread about them, and thought, hey, I wonder what people think about them in TESV?

A few questions:

Would you like to see a major influence of a Daedric Lord in TESV? Or would you prefer something less epic? By "Major Influence" I mean the whole plot centers around them. The likes of morrowind wouldn't count as Azura being a major influence, for example, it was all about the tribunal, she wasn't exactly the main role. Personally, I'm not swayed either side. I would like to see something orginal of the next province, but I would be fine with a Daedric Lord, if it's done well.

If so, what one(s) would you like to see? There's a whole bunch of them, ready for the picking, and they all represent something different. Remember, too many could detract from the story, and just be impractical. And for arguments sake, we're going to assume werecreatures will be involved, regardless of Hircine's involvment. Bethesda wouldn't likely leave it out, after all our complaining. I vote Hircine aswell as Vaermina, regardless, though, as I think they're both awesome.

Would you like to see a Daedric realm? There's a lot of people in love with Moonshadow, but personally, I think it would be far better to see Vaermina's realm. It would be hard to implement correctly, but with good designing, I think it could work out pretty awesome. One minute you're surrounded by undead and scary beasts, and the next minute you're in a dark castle. I would like to see bethesda look at some of the horror games out there to get some inspiration from, though.

Would you like to become a Daedric Lord yourself, in TESV? I think that was a weak story, in SI. The player should never make such an impact as to be saw by other characters in the next game. They should save the world, then disappear.

You might want to read http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedric_Princes before posting.

Oh, and incase your lore is rusty, remember, no one else has a realm resembling Mehrunes Dagon's. You may want to read up on them. Peryite's was only that way because the devs aren't going to make a whole new realm just for one quest. (although I think they should have used some imperial city architecture for it)

If (and I do hope not) we go into a Daedric Realm, I want to see Molag Bal. I know that Zelda has already done the whole "light world v. dark world" thing (repeatedly), but it does tend to be enjoyable.

Okay... lets see:
If I would like to see a Daedric Prince play a major role in the next game?
I dont really care as long as it is well made.
Pros about it:
1. Hopefully gives som more lore about the Daedra Princes.
2. It is lore-friendly.
3. There are so many possibilities.

Cons about it:
1. Oblivion already had it, it may get a tad boring with daedras everywhere.
2. Can′t really think of much more, it would however be fun with something new... if it was well made.

Which one/s?
Hermaeus Mora ofcourse! I would like to have a single big quest about finding a specific book in a big library with the size of the whole Oblivon gameworld and ghosts wandering around, some friendly, some mad, some dangerous, some evil and so on... That would be EPIC!!! There would be like thousands of books and they all look the same and they all got the same game-name even though it is different books all the time! Some books are perhaps dangerous? Others may give clues! Others may open completely new quests in the same big scale! Or... there would be some which would give you answers! Answers to what happened to Sheogorath after SI perhaps?
Just wonderful!

Daedric realms?
Ofcourse! Aslong as they are well made daedric realms would give you a good view into the minds of the daedra, their minons and so on...

Daedric lord yourself?
NEVER!!! Sheogorath was a special case but he is enough. Daedric Lords are Daedric Lords! I want them to be as they always are!

That is my opinion.

I think it could be pretty good, but I would rather wait for a few games for more lore books to be created. Right now, there isn't enough, and I doubt they'll be making hundreds of books during TESV. Just my opinion.

Also, it could be difficult, because I wouldn't want too much to be revealed. E.g., books about what happened to the Dwemer shouldn't be there, but we should know something big and new. It would, of course, take a long time to discover it, though. And book ID's should just be the likes of "MoraBook1", so I can't just easily look in the CS for the book I want

I'd rather not. The various gods are like hero paparazzi and I get tired of them. If the main quest is important enough I'm sure they'll have their fingers in it, but if it's a more local-scale, politics-oriented quest as some people want, there's no need for "and this daedric prince was behind it the whole time!"

As for their realms, I'm wary of it. I wasn't thrilled with the way any of them were represented in Oblivion. They're not supposed to be so easy to casually visit in general, and if they can't effectively represent these places I've got no need to be unimpressed by portals to twilight zones. I think they could be neat if done right, but I've got about the same view of them as the average reaction to the way "Mannimarco" was presented, so I won't complain about not seeing them again.

Becoming a Daedric Lord, no, boo on that.

Personally I'd rather they have an approach more similar to Daggerfall's but with the advantage of modern technology's representation. I think they give up their artifacts way too easily; talk to the big statue, do a quick errand, get one of the mightiest objects in the world. Thanks. Instead they would have faction relations of their own. A powerful summoner or members of their cult might be able to conjure up the prince's attention long enough for you to have a conversation, and if you've appealed yourself enough to their preferences you might get hints on where to find and/or how to reach their artifact. They might give you a different quest, or the interaction could end with a stat boost or bit of fortune-telling, or perhaps a more negative response. Likewise, if you're disliked by one and find the resting place of their artifact, a dangerous group of daedra might spawn as you approach it, or other adventurers might be getting the quest to kill you.

1) Do I want a daedric lord heavily involved?
No. Political fighting is much more interesting than some omniscient being trying to act like Tzeetch and constantly going "yes, all is going according to plan." Tamriel is much more interesting when mortals are standing as tall as the gods manipulating the events on their own.

2) If so, which would I like to see?
I am adamantly opposed to the idea of the princes being heavily involved, I could not in anyway vote. Since there is no option to skip, I just voted for all of them

3) Do I want to see another daedric realm?
No. Traveling to a prince's realm is hard and very rare. Only the most powerful mages and witches can do such a thing, and having daedra everywhere just cheapens their character. Hell, in Daggerfall, one had to be really high up in the chain of the Mages Guild to even be considered allowed to speak with the local warlock to even communicate with them, let alone traveling to their realm.

4) Do I want to become a daedric lord?
OH HELL NO! Sheogorath is enough! Any more, and we'll run heavily down the path of cheapening them into oblivion.

I'm pretty much in an agreement with what Rhekarid said about interacting with the princes, and their artifacts and my attitude of them giving up such powerful items so freely. Daedric artifacts are extremely powerful, and only the most powerful and influential of persons should be allowed to initiate conversation with them. Hell, the only time they'll interact with people is if they're powerful, or toying with a mortal to cause an event, hardly ever do they just toss their junk around to some commoner without purpose. You have to greatly earn their attention or respect before they'll converse with beings they consider to be nothing more than ants.

I'm all for something that's not cliche. The blatantly hell-inspired realms of Oblivion were a bit of a face-palm considering how massively rich the lore in this series is. To be honest, the fire-brimstone combo has really worn out over the decades of use in video games, films and whatnot.

If a daedra lord is in, I'd really like to see something different to obvious evil/good/insane. Maybe his identity and/or intention isn't revealed till the end, or his intentions may change through out the game as the very unusual series of events of which the storyline consists could humanize, or further demonize (is this a word?) him. Point is, there's a lot of lore to work with and I'm ok with anything the put out as long as it's original.


Also, it wouldn't be hard to have both good political intrigue and a daedra prince.

I'd prefer not to see Daedric Princes play a major role in the next game, as we already had that in Oblivion, they should be more like they were in Morrowind, present in the backstory and offering you quests if you find their shrines, but not playing a major role in the main quest, just because the Daedric Princes are there doesn't mean they need to have a part to play in every story, some stories are just fine on their own without some sort of divine figure manipulating the events.

If we do see any Daedric realms at all, it should be just a one time thing that you enter for side quests, maybe something like Boethia's quest in Oblivion where you need to enter a portion of Oblivion, and if they do appear again, they should NOT be your typical fire and brimstone hell again, we had enough of that in Oblivion, and honestly, when has something like that EVER been done creatively in a game? At least they can give us something less expected and obvious.

And a definate no for the player becoming a Daedric Prince, I'm not even sure I liked the idea in Shivering Isles, but at least it was special than, if every Elder Scrolls protagonist starts doing it, the whole awe aspect of a mortal ascending to a divine station becomes cheapened, besides, even Sheogorath was a special case, it's not like a mortal replaces a Daedra on a regular basis, that would just be silly.

I enjoyed Shivering Isles and its unique lore, but I don't want to see more realms of Oblivion in TES V, unless they are in the form of expansions.

no, having a daedra hidden behind the plot like Azura in morrowind is okay, but having them directly in it....eh....

Also., daedric realms were Oblivion's thing, I want to see what they can come up with next, rather then re-using thier previous ideas....

If they did have any gameplay inside Daedric realms, it had better be some wild, unique stuff. Psychonauts, but with monomaniacal deities. Ideally, doing strange things to physics and gameplay mechanics as the engine allows.

The painting thing was pretty inspired, at the artistic level. More stuff like that, less stuff like ripping off Dagon's textures for other Daedric quests.

Well, if it's really politics-ish, theres is a 99% chance that Clavicus Vile would show up somehow.

Can someone explain this to me? I just don't get it. Why is Sheogorath special? If anything, I would think Hircine would do something like this, since he's all for giving you a fair chance(ish).

Read the entire bottom paragraph. What happened in SI was a very special case, something that no longer needs to be repeated. Has nothing to do with Hiricne giving a fair chance to become him, because he wouldn't allow it in the first place.

I think they need to start over and re-boot the Daedric Realm on TES.

I'm no expert in TES but from what I saw of Oblivion in TES IV they were dreary treacherous/confusing places to live. Even if we take into account that each daedric plane is supposedly very different in appearance, depending upon the nature of the prince who rules it. Even if we accept each rulers realm ranges from beautiful to desolate; some may not even resemble worlds as we think of them; even so it appears they are all NOT as nice as Tamriel....which is a Daedric realm too I guess.

My advice would be to start over and stress that half the daedric realms fairly nice and half different sorts of hellishness. The lore seems to support this too; however, to be honest only Azura's Moonshadow and Sanguine's Realm seem to actully be nice enough to visit. If I were Bethesda I'd shift the lore to make more places 'foreign & different' but make then at least as safe as Tamriel. Then make the people's, flora, and fauna fitting of each realm. There should be CULTURE in some realms that you can understand and that makes sense of in a human context. Maybe, even one or two 'hellish' realms need to have an understandable stable working culture in them. That daedra flaying the skin off someone's body is doing a job, that being must have some 'down time' maybe picks uyp some milk and bread on the ay home, right? Hey, maybe not! But, on some level most anything has some sort of simplistic culture/orginization...even bugs and bacteria have behavior if not culture.

That's is what I want for them to more fully describe the culture and day to day functions of certain daedric realms. Some will be like Tamriel, some will be like seeing an ant colony function, some would be like places where time and doing things do not occur because biological and physiological needs, belongingness and love, and/or selfhood needs don't matter at all.

I still don't get it. Sheogorath is one of the ones who love to abuse his power more than the others. The same with Jygalagg. Neither would be willing to let you possibly stand in thier way. Why does "killing" Jygalagg turn you into a daedric lord anyway? And since when can a mortal kill a daedric lord? and since when can a daedric lord die? And what was that, happening to Jygalagg when I "killed" him? Also, surely the Shivering Isles are still Jygalagg's realm. Just because he's different, doesn't mean he'd leave his realm. He could quite easily change it to fit his desires. He does have absolute power there, after all. Speaking of which, he could have easily removed me from my very existence with a mere thought while I was in his realm.

It was all terrible story telling, imo, and it shouldn't have been included. Perhaps if I had got myself super powers ala Vivec, I could have partially understood, but I was just a mortal.

Personally, I would love if it didn't count as canon lore, though I doubt that'd be the case.

And I believe Hircine would have made more sense, because he likes to give his prey a chance, which means I may have been able to kill him. Not that it would have been a good idea, of course.



Also, the realms should stay as they are. I don't want to live in a daedric realm, just visit one. Each realm represents the lord there. If the lord is nasty, his realm will be nasty.

Head to the lore forums immediately, for you have a fundamental flaw in your understanding of what happened in SI. But I'll try to remedy some of that here.

First, you need to understand the beginnings of Sheogorath. He isn't an original spirit, he came to being either through a curse, or because predictability became shattered in the mortal plane of Mundus and Sheogorath became a representative of that. Either way, Sheogorath is Jyggy, and Sheogorath wants to be rid of Jyggy.

Now come SI. Sheogorath is tired of turning into Jyggy, and in eras past, has tried to stop it with various means, one most notably being a hole filled with clowns. All of his early plans ended in complete disaster. Sheogorath, with his insane mind, then hatched a plan to perform one the most unthinkable and unpredictable of things, use a mortal to become him. You see, thanks to Shor's divine mercy, mortals have the gift of freedom and largely being unpredictable, and Sheo needed that kind of being with such freedom to break the predictable cycle once and for all.

Using the same technique Tiber Septim used to become Talos, Sheogorath took the Champion of Cyrodiil, and taught him the ways of madness. Sheogorath's ultimate goal was to make it so that CoC acted so much like Sheogorath, it is as though the CoC was Sheogorath! Think of it this way, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it must be a duck. This is known as "Mantling." When a being mimics something so closely the two are practical indistinguishable, they must be the same (hence the duck anology). Like I said early, Tiber became Talos through this technique by mimicking the Enatiomorph with Wulfhart and Zurin Arctus. In the case of Sheogorath, he tried to make it so that the CoC acted and behaved just like Sheogorath, that the CoC must be Sheogorath. Remember, Sheogorath even tells the CoC straight up "symbols mean a lot." This is especially true when taking on the process of Mantling.

So what does killing Jyggy have to do with all this, and how the CoC become a daedric prince? This is how. As I said early, Sheogorath was putting the CoC on the path of acting so much like him, that the CoC may as well be Sheogorath (yes it works that way). By the time Sheogorath disappeared, think of it like this; an actor has just been teaching his understudy to act his exact role. Then one day, the actor doesn't show up, but he taught his understudy enough that should the actor be missing, the understudy would be able to perform exactly the same way. To everyone else, the two are pretty much the same. This is exactly what happened once Sheogorath became Jyggy. However, the process wasn't complete. Sheogorath was still becoming Jyggy, as reflected on how the land was becoming more and more Jyggy's realm (remember, the prince = his realm. The realm is the prince, and the prince is the realm). But, the last vestiges of madness was still there, Sheogorath stood tall to face his foe, Jyggy. The understudy finally took to the stage to put on a show like no other. Jyggy was defeated by Sheogorath, and the Shivering Ilse became Sheogorath, and Jyggy was free from his curse.

The old Sheogorath is dead, but the new Sheogorath has always been there. Sheogorath is dead, long live Sheogorath!

By the way, you need to look for subtle hints and listen more carefully, everything done was exactly what was supposed to happen and everything done had a reason. Sheogorath needed someone to take over his position (in other words, become him) and defeat Jyggy. The CoC did, defeated Jyggy, and is now the daedric prince of madness Sheogorath. The only thing you may trip over is the idea of mantling, which really requires knowledge of how Talos came to be. Also, ignore game mechanics when it came to actually being the madgod, they mean nothing lore-wise.

As to why Hiricine wouldn't work. First off, he'd never give any mortal that kind of chance, no way, no how. His idea of being 'fair' is definitely something you need to look up again. In his realm, the idea of him being sportsman means he won't come out till night to completely annihilate you. Also, if you somehow end up killing the physical image of him, it would do absolutely nothing; Hiricine IS his realm, just as the realm is him. Sheogorath is very different from the rest of his prince brothers and sisters, and what happened in SI is an extremely unique case. Sheogorath's sphere has huge significance to how things are, where has Hiricine's doesn't really have much, he just hunts.

You know the Shivering Isles is a realm of Oblivion, right?

You haven't played through the Shivering Isles questline, have you? I know you're eager to constantly bash Oblivion, but your failure to actually give anything about that game a chance is your problem. Sheogorath was represented well, and you take Oblivion bashing to the extreme. I recommend reading Hellmouth's post, as you don't seem to understand anything about Oblivion's lore.

To be fair, a lot of OB's MQ was a little bland at times, though a start for great things to come. One sided goody goody or puppy kicking quests from the guilds were most likely the biggest fault. SI, on the other hand, expanded nicely of the lives of the daedra, and gave a greater insight to the madgod. In addition, the Knights of the Nine had some really good books, though there were parts of that quest where I was a little skeptical, like how an altmer would dare join a cult where the main guy completely and utterly HATED mer.

Also, we only really saw MD's realm, everyone else's was pretty much a lazy placeholder. MD was having the biggest impact and was the main antagonist, so it would be expected to really uncover what MD's realm is like. Remember, he is the prince of destruction, revolution, violent storms, and the bloody scourge. His realm, more or less, reflected that. There were some good chunks here and there, though OB wasn't as saturated as DF or MW. The Commentaries were very interesting if one took the time to read and decipher its words.

The main quest was bland, but there was some good lore in Oblivion, yet Rellac is constantly bashing and misunderstanding Oblivion(which SI is one of my favorite parts of).There is some valuable information in Oblivion, such as that of the Ayleids, the amulet of kings, Alessia, and, of course, two Daedric princes(one of which had almost no information about him before the Shivering Isles), Sheogorath and Jyggalag. Rellac has never once complemented Oblivion or its lore and he has never seemed to understand any of Oblivion's lore(from a post of his, I know he doesn't know anything about the Ayleids). As for the mer joining the Knights of the Nine faction, they may not have been very knowledgable of the lore behind Pelinal Whitestrake.

Yes I have. I played through the whole game. I'm not bashing Oblivion, I just think that there is a terrible storyline.

Also Sheogorath WASN'T represented well. Can you seriously tell me any single instance where the dark side of insanity was represented, other than a punchline for another joke? I rarely saw him show his paranoid schizophrenic side. And I don't mean in the realm, I mean in actually him. It was pretty disrespectful to TES lore to show a daedric prince as a simple joke.

Didn't you read Hellmouth's post? There is much more lore to Oblivion and especially the Shivering Isles than you give credit for. Also, you can't really criticize how the developers flesh out a character they have created, but never fleshed out before, claiming it's not him, because it is. If you read Hellmouth's post or actually payed attention to the main quest of the Shivering Isles, you would know the Isles are actually Sheogorath. Dementia represents his hidden side, but why would a god be paranoid(or show his paranoia to a mortal he can easily kill) in his own realm(you should try attacking him, just to show you why he would never be afraid of a mortal, as well as his cruel sense of humor)? Sheogorath was far from a joke. His intentions are said to be unknowable, and so of course he, in his madness, would hide them. The story was far from terrible, but as I said, your claim obviously shows that you did not understand the events of the Shivering Isles. As Hellmouth pointed out, your understanding of the events of SI are vastly flawed.

I'm not a casual gamer. I like a game with depth and story. I just think that SI had a bad story. Is that really too hard to comprehend? Sure, I didn't fully understand everything, it's been years since I've played Oblivion, so excuse me for not knowing every detail.


You don't seem to understand insanity. Not everything makes sense to others when someone is insane. Sheogorath is supposed to represent all insanity everywhere. Do you think that the likes of Dagoth Ur, Orvas Dren, the Dark Brotherhood, and all the other murderers are insane? Yes? Then why didn't Sheogorath represent that? Why did he only represent the "funny" side of insanity?

And his realm is him, he is is realm. He should be the exact same as his realm, if his realm represents something, he should represent something. e.g., Nocturnal's realm is full of darkness, she represents darkness. Hircine's realm is a constant hunt. He represents hunting. The list goes on, but I think you get my point. Sheogorath should have represented what was shown in his realm. I never ever ever once saw him show the dementia side of his realm in his personality, other than as some punch line.


Yet you demand to know why he should feel paranoid when he's powerful, but are fine with his character remaining a mystery?

For you, it is. I'm curious to know if you actually like anything about Oblivion. Anyway, you just don't not understand everything about the story, but you seem to have misunderstood it greatly. It's not terrible in a way that contradicts lore or doesn't fit together, which is what you imply your definition of terrible is.

Since Sheogorath represents insanity and since his intentions are unknowable, why should he make sense to you? He doesn't represent just the funny side, but he doesn't have to show his other forms of insanity as obviously as he shows his funny side. Paranoia is always an easy to spot thing and Bethesda never forgot about his dark side, as shown in the morally questionable quests he gives you and the fact that half of his realm does represent his darker side. He doesn't always have to be personally torturing someone to show of his dark side, but is he not torturing the people of the Isles enough with the curse of insanity he places on them and the hill of suicides? If that's not enough, read the material describing his values that was added by Shivering Isles. http://uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:The_Blessings_of_Sheogorath. Also, from some of his words and the fact that the main quest depends on experiencing both side of insanity, we know he's aware of the dark side of insanity, if the world wasn't enough proof.

That was a rhetorical question. He has nothing to fear, so he shouldn't act paranoid, even though he represents paranoia.