Even the Princes I serve, namely, Boethiah, Orkey (Malacath), Mephala, I consider to be neutral. I worship Boethiah because I wish to be an individual, because I want to overthrow the status quo with violence, reaching my own heaven through violence if you will. I worship Mephala because....well, I just like to [censored] with people. Orkey recieves my praise because I am a social outcast in many ways, I am also a liar and a thief who breaks promises. I am not proud of this fact, but it is who I am, and I shall embrace it. They do not recieve my thanks because I view them as 'good', they recieve it because they are, in a sense, me.

So really, my opinion of the Daedra reflects me; they are all neutral. Not to say I act completely out of selfishness, if I care for someone enough, I will defend them to my death, but I still embrace the negative aspects of my personality as well.

Thank you.

Orkey is Arkay. The Nord didn't need Arkay because Shor was the god of the dead, and all halls of the dead were the cathedrals of Shor. That Skyrim made Arkay important was just another instance of Beth ignoring good lore to further their Imperial mastvrbation.

Since we've established that you want me to base this off of my morality, I'm going to replace "evil" with the term "bad," just because I think the notion of "evil" is silly and impossible. If I was a mortal in Tamriel with a fair amount of the knowledge about the nature of their universe as I have now, then it would be:

Very Good: None

Good: None

Neutral: Meridia, Malacath, Nocturnal

Aligned Neutral: Clavicus Vile, Sanguine, Sheogorath, Hermaeus Mora

Bad: Boethiah, Hircine, Mephala, Peryite, Namira, Azura

Very Bad: Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, Vaermina


Basically, Daedric Princes are bad news for mortals. At best, you get lucky and sneak by with your life and your sanity with a trinket that will hopefully not wind up getting you killed. At worst, you get tortured in Oblivion for an eternity. Though typically, people land somewhere inbetween.

I believe Orkey is not Arkay, but Malacath. See http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_True_Nature_of_Orcs, and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith.... As for Shor, it's been over two hundred years since the idea that their souls go to Shor in Sovngarde when they die, it's possible that in this time Arkay is instead a protector of their bodies and souls, so they may go to Shor without fear of being taken or defiled. Either that or things have simply changed in two hundred years.

See, I'd share that view, were I not a demi god myself.

How is Azura 'Bad'? With the possible exception of Meridia, she seems to the mose benovelent of the bunch, though is Sul is to be beleived she does have something of a 'clingy girlfriend' thing going on. Daedra forbid the Nerevarine should die and go back to the Moonshadows, he'll never go free.

Anyway, i tend to agree that applying mortal concepts of Morality to the Daedra is inherently a flawed concept. HOWEVER, i do think if we were to partake in such an endevour, the 9-point alignment system from a Pre-4th edition D&D would be the most appropriate. This is because each category has a specific temperment associated with it, thus removing the subjectivity of the good-neutral-evil dynamic. Evauating the acts of a particular Daedra is still subject to personal interpretation, but its better than nothing, eh what?

Lawful Good; No one, most likely, though Peryite maybe. He does have a predilection for Order, and his diseases seem to be viewd as loving gifts, both by him and by many of his subjects.
Also, possibly, Jyggalag. He is definately Order aligned, but his treatment of followers and personal temperment remains unknown
Neutral Good; Meridia, almost certianly. She opposes characteristicly 'evil' things, though tends to be somewhat judgemental and personal in her actions, rather than following a specific code.
Potentially Namira. Again, she seems to have a genuine concern for her followers, even though they themselves are often somewhat unsavory. She doesn't have a specific code, but neither does she act in a mostly erratic fasion.
Chaotic Good; Azura, for certian. While she is motherly and caring, she almost exclusivly acts on whim and personal agenda, rather than following some perscribed code of ethics.

Lawful Neutral; Clavacus Vile, who while not evil, cannot be trusted. He does, however, follow his promises, even if he may be somewhat dubious in loopholes, showing he has an ordered nature
Hercine. The hunt requires a particular order to it, and while unforgiving does reward those who prove themselves able hunters/prey. As such, he cannot be considered 'evil' in the strict sense
Malacath. He definately has a code. While harsh, it's not overtly oppressive, and meant to make the Orcs strong rather than subjigate them. Thus, he's not really 'evil'
Neutral ; Hermaeus Mora. He has nothing in the way of a set morality, and seeks knowlege for its own sake.
Nocturnal. She's not evil, nor is she really unpredictable, but she also doesn't really 'care', and has a vengeful streak thats scary
Boethia perhaps. She/He/it isn't particuarly nice, but doesn't inflict suffering for its own sake. its all about personal betterment.
Chaotic Neutral ; Sanguine, clearly. He's just out for a good time, Consequences be damned
Shaeogorath. He's not evil, he's not good. He's unpredictable in the extreme, though while 'chaotic' usually refers to acting on personal whim, i think being pathologically impulsive fits as well.
Lawful Evil ; Molag bal. I don't really think i need to explain that one
Again, possibly Peryite. He's lawful, and his penchant for diseases and destruction could mark him as evil, even though he sees it as affection
Neutral Evil; Vaermina. She acts of her own accord, with litle regard for her followers or anything else, but is not compltely unpredictable. Her rather distasteful love of nightmares and fear marks her as more 'evil'
Mephala. Likes to see people suffer for her own amusemant, but while not strictly ordered like Molag Bal and Peryite, she does like her convoluted plots
If not Neutral, then Boethia would be Neutral Evil, for the sole purpose that their plots almsot always result in death and suffering, though not nessessarily for their own followers
Chaotic Evil; Mehrunes Dagon. He inflicts pain and death for its own sake, cares only abour his own power, and is the true embodyment of the Chaotic Evil concept.

How is Azura anything but bad? She's the most manipulative of all the Daedra, to the point that she still has Dunmer worshiping her and thinking she's benevolent. She's a spoiled little [NUMINIT] with Mundus-envy and all she really cares about is herself and being worshiped. Give me Mehrunes Dagon any day, at least he'll straight up tell you his intentions. Also, the mere fact that she's typically the deity of choice for your average Dunmer should be evidence enough.

I don't get where you're getting this. Azura didn't actually do much manipulating even in Morrowind, aside from warning the Chimer about the Dwemer (which culminated with them turning their back on her) and Numidium, then prophesying the coming of the Nerevarine and Dagoth Ur, then actually giving Vivec the Nerevarine when he's ready to give up his godhood to save Morrowind. She was even nice enough to stop the Ash Storms that Almalexia, having gone nuts, was running. Yes she was instrumental to end the Tribunal's curse, but she never needed to manipulate them to make them realize that she was their only hope at stopping the threat that they could not foresee nor defeat with their Heart-granted powers.

Because it's more than just a "clingy girlfriend" type of thing, she plays with mortals like they're dolls. Sure, she'll adore them as long as they're not doing things she personally doesn't want them to do, but if they do do that, then she starts killing things with fire. Also, if the dolls get ruined in any way (such as becoming vampires), rather than bothering to take the time to fix them, she just throws them away.

How was she their only hope? All I recall was Azura sending out dozens of dreams to various mortals entering Vvardenfell telling them they were the Nerevarine, then a certain individual with enough competence finally came along to fulfill the prophecies and actually stop Dagoth Ur. Of course Azura, in her infinite narcissism, is going to show up when it's all over and take credit for everything, as if she knew what was going on all along. And it was all out of revenge, not out of compassion or any of that.

I've never seen Azura be nice. I've only seen Azura be patronizing, condescending, petty, vengeful, and narcissistic. Any act of "kindness" is either something she had no part in that she takes credit for, or just a cover-up for her own selfish desires.

This is where the personal interpretation of action comes in that i alluded to earlier. You view it as her playing with dolls, i view it as a mother trying to teach her children a lesson. A dissobedient child gets punished when it gets out of line, but is always given the opportunity to make amends. Azura did not destroy the Chimer for their betrayl of trust, she gave them a chance to make up for it, even if it was a rough trip.

As for the vampire thing, we all know that curing Vamparism is no easy feat. In fact, it requires working with either other Daedra, or Daedra worshiping witches. Even then, i don;t know of a single case where someone has had the cure FORCED on them. What Azura did, to me, was give her corrupted followers peace when they were otherwise beyond hope.


Was she though? I know there were other claimants to the title of Nerevarine, but i don't specificly remember any of them saying Azura sent them there. Most seemed to have followed out of a personal beleif that THEY were the Nerevarine, rather than Azura's guidance. As for you and Juib, you weren't drawn there by Azura, you were sent there by Uriel VII. Theres also no indication that Juib recived a vision.

She wasn't just sending visions randomly out, she was talking to the reincarnation of her champion Nerevar Indoril. When the Tribunal only saw the threat of the Remans, Septims, and Daedric Princes, Azura prophesied the coming of Dagoth Ur and the Seven Curses. She knew that eventually Vivec would grow desperate enough to seek out the Nerevarine's help to pull off his contingency plan to destroy the enchantments on the Heart. And I feel she deserved the credit for stopping Dagoth Ur. I think people take too many liberties regarding interpreting Azura's motives. Really, it feels to me like more of a stretch to say that everything she does has selfish, sinister undertones than saying that they're largely benevolent and focused on righting the wrongs of the past.

That is definitely not the way she treated Malyn Varen in Skyrim. Yeah, his experimenting with Azura's Star with the secret motive to allow it to store black souls obviously doesn't put him in the right, but Azura making him go even more insane isn't so much "negative reinforcement" as it is torment, especially since it only made his experimenting even more depraved.

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I swear there are others who claimed to have been spoken to by Azura. There's a reason the player never really knows for sure whether or not he/she really is Nerevar reborn, but if Azura is talking to you and only you, I can't see how that deniability reasonably exists. Someone else may need to step in and correct me or back me up on this. I also don't see how Vivec required the Nerevarine's help. He needed any competent hero, and again I say, that role was filled by the protagonist, Nerevarine or not. And even if we are to say that Azura really did reach into Aetherius and tug Nerevar's soul out and shove it into your body, I still don't think she deserves the credit, because she did nothing to help or guide you, not until you arrived at the Cavern of the Incarnate, and by then, you had already taken plenty of the initiative into your own hands. I see that more as "Hey! Look! Someone is finally competent enough to actually get the job done!" Throughout the entire main quest of Morrowind, Azura steps in when convenient, does nothing to help but goes out of her way to claim she is helping, then shows up at the very end to take credit.

As far "righting the wrongs" goes, sure, they killed Nerevar, but reincarnating him isn't righting anything, and sure, they broke their oath to her, I can see her wanting some petty vengeance for that, but that's less "righting a wrong" and more about a personal vendetta, and then what other wrong is there to right? Using the Heart? How was that wrong? The Tribunal helped their people. If we are to believe the typical viewpoints of men, then Lorkhan put his heart into the world intentionally. What else is it there for but to be used? Regardless of viewpoint, Azura was merely jealous that a mortal of Mundus could stand up to her, a Daedric Prince. Azura didn't right any wrongs, because what was done had already been done. She's driven by jealousy and vengeance.

You got the idea that she was tormenting him? I got the idea that she was trying to warn him. Repeatedly. His ambition, combined with her warnings, is what drove him mad. She revealed to him what would happen, rather than giving up he would try to find a way around it. She would show him the consequences of his solution, he would find another solution. I view the whole dynamic as a motherly faling on Azura's part, she refused to back off and stop trying to help even when Malyn was already lost. Similar to every mother crying 'Naw, mah baby could never kill someone or smoke droogs!" as her child is hauled into court.

Pushing someone who is already "off" even more over the edge isn't a very good way of warning or helping. Either she was torturing him, or she's incredibly stupid.

Most of the Nerevarine dreams were not sent by Azura, but by Dagoth Ur. And it was Dagoth Ur who was brainwashing people with dreams: if anyone would mislead in such a way, it would be him. As for who would save the day, keep in mind that Azura spent possibly milennia setting things up, giving prophecies, so that the Dunmer may know the signs of the Nerevarine's coming. It was her prophecies that guided to Nerevarine in following in Nerevar's footsteps, gaining the recognition of the Ashlanders and becoming the Hortator of the Great Houses. In doing this, Azura guided the Nerevarine not only fulfilling the prophecies she had given, for all the nation to see, but proving the Nerevarine to be just the hero Vivec needs.

As for the heart, messing with it, while well-intentioned, was, in my opinion, foolish and doomed to failure. While it could be argued that the Tribunal were what prevented Dagoth Ur from taking over, it could also be argued that had the Tribunal not betrayed Azura, turned worship to themselves and kept Kagrenac's Tools, she could have prevented Dagoth Ur's awakening in the first place. It also doesn't help that it was an act of betrayal: she was the one who had tipped them off regarding the Dwemer, and in return, they murder Nerevar, both her champion and their friend, then steal Lorkhan's power and turn Chimer worship away from her. And even then she didn't react nearly as badly as Sheogorath did.

Again, or shes a mother figure. Parental figures aren't generaly ones to give up, even when all reason demands they should. Its called love, and in Azura's actions i see alot more of it than ever a good thing. Does that make her evil? No. It makes her flawed. That flawed nature makes her Daedra.

let's not forget that she warned the Dunmer about the Ministry of Truth, sending visions to them so that as many as possible could get off Vvardenfell before the explosion. She's certainly vain and petty, but if you do right by her, she'll always do right by you.

She didn't send any visions about the crash of the Ministry of Truth, unless I'm missing in-game dialog. She also [censored] around with Sul, and went back on the deal she made with him.

Its heavily implied at the Shrine of Azura that she guided many Dunmer away from Red Mountain before it irrupted, and thats why they built a new shrine to her in Skyrim.

I think we don't have the same concept of "motherly love". Last I checked, I was pretty sure motherly love doesn't involve making someone schizophrenic.

No, but it does often involve being overbearing and pushing when it's best to back off and wait. The interpretation of Malyn's maddness depends entirely on how you view intent. Were the visions to torment, or to warn?

If warn, then she definately pushed too hard with them, but how many mothers drive their children away by pushing to hard? That doesn't make them evil.

The immense power gap, far moreso than any mortal's ultra-biased views hopes about the way the universe works, defines "nice" and "nasty" Daedra, to my mind. Which is to say, there aren't any "nice" ones. Ordinary mortals are insects in comparison. Consider that "not helping me" is often as damning from a mortal perspective as "harming me."

If you step on and crush the life from an insect, are you evil? By most definitions of evil (putting aside for a moment the ludicrous amount of bias always involved), yes you are. Further, if you could save an insect's life but do not, are you at least "not good"? Such a perspective would inevitably lead you to define anything potent enough to treat you like you treat an insect as evil (and there's the bias in full force).

So they're all evil, if you're so inclined to give the word any meaning. Of course when one is crushed under the heel of a monstrous demon-spirit's metaphorical boot, using subjective language to condemn its actions doesn't prevent the crushing, in the present or the future. So indeed there is just what is, and words impact people rather less than violence.

If you're awesome enough to inflict violence upon the Princes, indirectly or otherwise, you've probably already got that (and a lot more) figured out (or just don't care). And at that point there will probably be insects calling you evil.

It's a tough gig, being totally awesome. You get called all kinds of things.