Nudity is no big deal. An RPG is not designed for people to get off (well, not TES lol). I can see little purpose in including it as a feature, and anyone old enough to work it out and who really wants it can just get a mod anyway. No nudity means many more sales.

I agree here, nudity is something present in the real world and some people feel it would add immersion (and it would), as it is a part of everyday life. I suspect my overall objection to it right now is that there are no shades of gray, you either see a nvde female every time you loot a female NPC or you get underwear with nothing in-between. If the presentation of nudity were much more selective and realistic, it might not be objectionable at all.

I still feel as Bethesda does that the nudity issue is one best avoided, it won't ruin the game for 99.9% of the players out there and avoids a ton of hassle. Like many other mediums, as a parent I could also live with nudity in the game more openly IF there was a parental lock on that - like a option in the menu's to turn nudity on or off and a simple password to protect changes to that option. I could then install the game for my son, turn off nudity and set the password - problem solved. If Bethesda were to add this kind of protection, then I would have no objections to it in the game.

Being a parent and dealing with these issues is not fun in today's world, the slope has grown more slippery and difficult to navigate. I have found the only option that lets me sleep is to be very liberal about it once my kids become teenagers and in fact to teach them as much as I can about it before they start having six. Today that can be as young as 12, which is frightening for me and why I get my hackles up when the idea that my 9 year old son would start getting exposed to regularly in his favorite games.

In the Daggerfall days, the already business-savvy company was making a game for a mainstream fantasy culture for whom long-haired, bare-briasted, tattooed women was the norm.

Why not? Because there are more important things they can focus on and mods will do it better.

Just read what Oblivion suffered, that's pretty much the worse thing that could happen and Oblivion was still a huge success. The Witcher went that extra mile, it didn't stop getting an 81/100 in Metacritic or hurt the sales.

I think there will be nudity. Not sixist but natural and maturely integrated.

Have you seen some Americans? I do not want to see some of my family members naked because a lot of them are fat. I think some people look better with clothes on.

But we Americans associate nudity with six, so yes, we're nvde phobic most of the time. And I'm doubt it's going to change anytime soon.

Basic point one: Nudity and six are two different things.

Now. How could nudity be in game? Let's see....

Communal bathing. At the stage of development of Tamriel, tubs would be a rich mans affectation. Communal baths would be the norm....at least when you weren't bathing in a river.
CLothes washing. Another place where stripping off and hopping in to get clean along with the laundry was common, as said laundry would be done at aforementioned rivers and streams.
Homes. Those who wear plate or chain to lounge around at home after a hard day of adventuring, please raise your hand. Do you sleep in your layered outfit?
Religious ceremonies. Dibella is one divine where this would not only be common, but probably mandatory. Others would have varying bits of and degrees.
Ritual Magic ceremonies. The kind of magic the PC uses is what is called quick magic. High ritual (like summonings) usually involves some degree of nudity.
Inns. Communal bathing or saunas and little to no storage of lots of clothing. Limited to baths and rooms, unless someone runs out of said room.
Torture. Skin was and is in if someone is working over someone else for information, for their salvation, whatever the reason.
A quest beginning. You are travelling overland. You find a young lady wearing very little of what was apparently a nice outfit. In shock. Do you leave her there? Take her to a nearby village? Kill her, only to find out later that she was the daughter of someone you needed information from, and you just added a -lot- of time to your mission?
Dragon refuse. Dragons are carnivores. They eat messily. Things will get left behind, or uneaten. Some will be in clothes. Some will not.;


Now look at that of the top of the head list. Not one bit of six implied save for the quest beginning, as it heavily implies offscrene [censored]. Just normal, everyday situations in the world that full dress would not be allowed or appropriate. That is the kind of nudity being talked about. Not Leisure Suit Larry gets Laid.....

Well, the nudity issue would only be a problem in the U.S as European rating boards are more strict with violence than nudity. Also in Europe you games are not rated above 18 and the rating doesn't stop the stores from selling the game. The problem is that the U.S marked is so big, that every developer caters them instead of the rest of the world, that doesn't have a problem with nudity and six.

Especially whitin the family :blink:...I'm european but watching relatives naked would be very weird...anyway on topic, basically what was already said, no nudity more sales and less Fox News scandals :swear:

The fact of the matter is, though... that there's just as little reason -not- to have it, as there is to -actually- have it.

It's one of those things that basically goes either way. One group will cast off the shackles of society and all their ridiculous precepts based... another will say "Why bother with the hassle?" Some people will see nudity in a game as arbitrary, and avoid it. Others will keep it limited to areas where it makes sense.

It's all very, very arbitrary... although, lately, the majority has been leaning more in favor of sales than changing the system.

And who, really, can blame them? Is it worth the fuss to do, when you know your fanbase will do it for you in less than a day?


But there -is- one, serious flaw.

Somewhere along the way... nudity and -six- got confused. There's nothing inherently sixual about nudity. That is a construct of society... and on which desperately needs to die. Don't get me wrong, clothes are great and all... and there are some folks (like me) who should definitely stay clothed whenever possible.

That being said, this hyper-sixualization of -everything- is getting to unhealthy levels.

People should not have to be afraid of their own bodies. People shouldn't have to constantly feel like 'skin' is bad... and that's, quite frankly, the sort of insecurities that these norms and mores are producing in our youth. six is everywhere. It's on TV, in the schools, in the shop-windows on the streets. It's the topic of the day. And yet we get awkward and stupid whenever it comes up. If everything is about six, these days, then why is it nobody can talk about it? Why is it that folks get so squeamish about nudity?

Our kids see this. They're not stupid, and they're not blind. They see TV, they hear talk at school, they make all kids of dirty jokes that would make us BLUSH if we ever caught them repeating them... and yet it's us who can't seem to handle six... or things mistakenly perceived as six.

This just gets translated to video games, as well.

We've all been trained that six is bad, and anything bad must be shunned. We've all been trained that -everything- is sixual, and so since six is bad... we shade the whole world in varying degrees of negativity. Everything becomes a twisted, nightmarish world of horrors. At every turn, we see the corruption of whatever morality we might have. (Which is none, by the way, since morality is also an arbitrary construct of human society)

All the while, we make up for it by exposing ourselves to horror movies, violence, and the occasional Sitcom. We become the enemy, of course, in the process... because these things only serve to further excite the pleasure senses of the brain. Suddenly, everything really -is- sixual... but now we've triggered all our instinctive lusts for violence and power and control.

We build ourselves up into madmen, ashamed of our own skin, afraid of our own desires...

... and because this behavior is reinforced not only by our religions, but our parents, and our governments, we see it as being nothing less than a fact of life. We're all terrible people inside, with terrible urges that must be suppressed. We let them out in short, uncontrollable bursts... manifesting themselves as anxiety... manifesting themselves in the form of abusive relationships. Every day is just one more day of suppressing ourselves, our true thoughts and feelings and desires... because we're taught that they're all bad.

And eventually, if we don't go completely psychotic... we internalize these irrational feelings of self-loathing and shame... and then, once they're a part of us, we're compelled to force these same feelings onto those around us as well.

Misery loves company, after all.


This is what happened to society. This is what continues to happen... at least here in the States.

We've all internalized all this self-loathing and shame... until now we can't see the world without seeing the tainted nature of everything. Strangely, the consumption of six and violence in media has only increased... and yet our societal reaction to them both continues to be fraught with deeper and deeper levels of rage and resentment. The harder we struggle against our instinctive needs, the more shame we feel when... inevitably... we fail to suppress them. We all eventually seek out violence, and six, and various forms of excitement, save perhaps for those who dedicate their entire lives to psychologically disciplining themselves.

It's not a game you can win... just a game you slowly lose less and less at over time.


Until this cycle ends... or society finally manages to throw off these burdens of 'sin' as being nothing more than psychological catalysts for self-loathing... media is going to be at war with itself.

Those who cater to the masses and those who seek the largest profits will try to appeal to our 'good moral characters'. They subject themselves to being censored, and rated... to being limited in what they can say and do and mention. Those who refuse, are relegated to the dark corners of the world... left to fend for themselves in their own industry for having the 'gall' to offend our delicate senses.

Very few companies, aside from those who specifically market six and sixuality, are going to willingly be cast off into the darkness.

That is why you won't see nudity in Skyrim. That is why you may well not see nudity in another Elder Scrolls game, save for if it gets modded in by the community.


Indeed, society has labeled it as "The Line"...

... and like so many other hypocritical lines, there will be war should it be crossed.

Then why aren't they going for an E rating? That would get more of an audience than even T (despite them going for an M, anyway; can't get higher than that without being effectively banned).

Out of all the "main" ES games that were ESRB-rated (Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion), Morrowind is the only one that had a rating below M. The ESRB wasn't around for Arena, Daggerfall was M, Morrowind was T, and Oblivion was M (it was originally T, but a post-release re-review changed that; it was not changed due to mods, it should've been M from the get-go), and for Skyrim they're expecting an M.

The series is, by and large, not suitable for children or young teens. Whether Skyrim has nudity or not won't change that. I, personally, see no reason to censor nudity where it makes sense to be. Nudity doesn't have to be pormographic to the point of risking an AO rating.

Yeah but if the game had nudity, corporations like Fox News (*cough Mass Effect and recently Bulletstorm incidents *cough) would just use it as an argument for their on going war against video games.

Fox News is always complaining about something. Skyrim having some nudity won't change that.

The Witcher.

Do you see the difference between American version of The Witcher v UK Version of The Witcher.

There is.

Of course, the nudity in the Witcher was censored in the American release. I understand that the developers did eventually release a patch removing the nudity censorship in the American version, but this only happened later on, so I'm not sure that it really tells us that the public is ready to accept nudity in mainstream gaming.



I agree with that, I don't automatically think "six!" whenever I see nudity. Certainly, nudity can be sixual, if one goes out of the way to portray it in such a light, but so can partially clothed people. On the other hand, I've seen instances of nudity that in no way struck me as sixual. I mean, you see nudity in paintings and sculptures all the time, but I wouldn't accuse an art gallery of displaying pormography to minors. And I doubt many people would call an anatomy textbook erotic either. It has a lot to do with the context in which nudity is used and how its portrayed. Still, I think this notion is too deeply rooted for it to die easily and quickly.



Probably not, but it would give them an excuse to make Skyrim the subject of their next attack on video games. Though to be fair, it doesn't seem like the scandal hurt Mass Effect too much, seeing as it still did pretty well and got its sequel and now even a third game is in development.

It may seem like that now but graphics are subjective. In 10 years everything we do now will look like blurred low poly garbage.



Agreed.. sort of.

Until nudity is completely common-place in general western society (if it ever is) then nudity will be recognized as nudity, not simply being in an undressed state. The issue with ESRB is that nudity seems to instantly be "sixual content," even though I suppose it could be portrayed in a non-sixual way. But until nudity is treated differently then there'd be no reason to include it in the game.



American society. I can turn on cable television here and catch glimpses of nudity in TV shows, some of them even on public funded TV. The US is quite strict on nudity when compared to most other western countries.

-snip-

Very true - and being that Bethesda is here in the US (along with the bulk of the player base) we have to play by societies rules.

I'm all for a more liberated society, but we are not there yet.

You are not there yet. We have been for thirty years. In Norway, the national broadcast company (NRK) shows nudity in family shows and have done it forever. On Norwegian beaches it's ok to sunbade showing nipbles. In Europe nudity is natural, and playing games where everyone has they're underwear glued on them feels unnatural and destroys the immersion. American piety svcks!!!

Negative press is not always bad press. I especially doubt the target audience for Skyrim is going to be using Fox News as a source for their gaming information. It's not like it's being targeted at kids whose parents get their news from Fox. It's being targeted at advlts, who can make their own decisions and don't need to be protected from the danger of some skin.

Games would not be the way they are today if it wasn't for people pushing boundaries. Just look at Doom. It was heavilly lambasted in its time for its "excessive gore" and being a "murder simulator", but it's a very important piece in gaming history all the same. Games are an artistic and entertainment medium, like books and movies. Since all other forms of art and entertainment can get away with nudity (some movies even with a PG-13 rating), why not games?

Caving to the likes of Fox News and needlessly self-censoring oneself just goes to strengthen their position, that all games are ultimately for kids and we shouldn't be able to make our own decisions of what we want to play.

Yes, but only if nudity was employed in certain situations.

And on about America and nudity. Most programmes I watch from American have nudity, hell I've become a fan of Boardwalk Empire and that has nudity in every episode to my counting.

Personaly I think someone should create SUAP the shut up and play ratings board that combines more of the saner ratings methods around the globe and instead of having an age based setup simply tells you how much of each kind of thing there is.

I never said they should, I agree that it's unnecessary. I was stating an opinion based on another post about the general thinking around nudity these days.

Dagerfall was relatively obscure when it was released back then, so they didn't really have to worry about the media. Also, the graphics weren't anything like they are today, so nudity wasn't all that graphic. Now with body-physics and amazing graphics and huge media-attention because of other games that tried it, Bethesda don't want to risk it. They also don't want to remove dragging bodies around because it could be seen as kinda "sick" if the body were naked. I don't care whether it's in or not, personally, but I can see many good reason why it just can't happen.

An incredibly stupid idea, look at the UN human right commission as a worst case scenario.
Yes some lands like Japan have very liberal censoring but China has strict one some other are far worse.