well personally i wouldnt care what graphics TES used, if they are good, lore-rich games i'll play them. i would be perfectly fine if TES 5 used DaggerXL graphics and have twice the much random generated content as Daggerfall.

its like this for me: Daggerfall and Might and Magic III-V ALWAYS gets installed on every new computer i buy/build, while Oblivion have been install like...twice since i pre-ordered the collectors edition when it was new.
also, the last games i bought was Avernum I-V and Knights of the Chalice, which says alot of what kind of gamer i am.

sure bloom and [censored] like that can be nice if not overused on everything, but i hardened my ass on games like Bards Tale I-III, Dragon Wars and the SSI RPG's like Wizards Crown/Phantasie series so im not easily impressed about it.

Top-of-the-line graphics may not be the most important thing about the game from a hard-core player's perspective, but without them the developers won't sell enough copies to pay for the amount of time and effort invested. The games are generally designed to sell to everyone from the "casual" gamer to the "fanatical RPG'er", so they've got to have a good mix of gameplay and graphics, be easy enough to learn but challenging to beat, and allow a few "exploits" for those who can't live without "shortcuts", without making those same exploits "mandatory" for the more "purist" RP players and those who want to "do it the hard way".

The developers "learned" from the complaints about each game, and geared the next in the series accordingly, to "develop" the series into a more marketable commodity. Unfortunately, many times the good points were thrown out along with the bad, and rather than "rebalancing" the problem, the developers created a totally new game mechanism with FRESH problems to replace the "flawed" older one. Change is essential, but change for no reason isn't necessarily an improvement. Even change WITH a reason needs to be compared against the current model in order to make a rational choice between "New" and "Updated".

Daggerfall's purely random content had its share of problems, but was the correct answer to remove that random content, or to mix it in some proportion with a limited amount of "static" content? A balance would allow for more random "sprawl" or "clutter" between one of several sets of "static" content, so the essentials would make some sense, yet other elements would vary to preserve "uniqueness" between similar places or situations. Purely random buildings? Not realistic. Random housing and occasional random shops scattered in districts between the "semi-fixed" town or city centers and "key" places? Close enough to realistic, and lots of it to fill the otherwise empty landscape.

This is going to be a problem. Privateer's Hold is a big dungeon by most games' standards, but compared to most Daggerfall dungeons it is tiny.

Daggerfall dungeons are just plain unfair. They are GIGANTIC. Their three dimensionality makes them an evil task to navigate. They have no rationality to their layout. They are like a twisted science experiment.

I love them, but at the same time, they are torture to even me, and I LIKE dungeon delving.

1. While hardcoe gamers definitely don't believe graphics are the most important thing to them in a game, most still like good graphics, as long as they don't severely limt gameplay. There is no reason not to like the actual graphics when they are improved. However, some still claim they would be perfectly fine with Daggerfall's graphics. There is evidence a bit above. Even a hardocre gamer should be disappointed if TES V didn't come out with at least decent graphics(why else are there so many graphical mods for even the deeper games in TES series. DaggerXL is attempting to make improvements and there are many graphical Morrowind mods that people(hardcoe gamers) consider essential. Graphics are a part of the game. Without any graphics at all, there is no game. As graphics get better, the game world is better presented and becomes even more realistic. It's like art. Do you want horrible art, or do you want to bring a dream to life. TES games are getting graphicly better, and I like that. What good is Morrowind's varied environment if it has Daggerfall's graphics? What good is a view from Dive Rock if it has Daggerfall's graphics? What good is the game world itself if it isn't presented with decent graphics? Daggerfall's graphics were good for its time, so where people who were "hardcoe" gamers complaining about how good Daggerfall's graphics were back then? Did people want older graphics back then? Graphics do not equal anti-hardcoe. Graphics are the very foundation of a video game. If graphics don't matter, how is the game world to be presented?

2. I read about those artifacts in a book in Oblivion, but I can actually obtain them now? I'm excited.

3. I'm back from school, and I get to play Daggerfall at the end of a bad day.

Because ya comparing the work of the Developer (deadlines and what not) to a work of some people's hobby (the time of the whole world) of making the graphic better. DaggerXL and MGE is still a new thing and added thing that would be impossible in the past. Not to mention there already high-rez texture for Fallout 3 and Oblivion created to up to a whooping 2048x2048 pixels. Easy as said, why the hell not to use it if its already there (unless the computer cannot handle it).


No, then people will be playing tabletop RPGs/pen-and-paper RPG like DnD. No graphics is need and the game is still popular today.


That a stupid anology of bring art into this. If its in cost of other thing that make the game functionable/freedom/content, then forget about it.


Its only as good as what the game content. It would be an interesting matter if Morrowind were to be made with Daggerfall's graphic. Then they would included a system as similar as to Daggerfall (there alot more free space that can be use up). Dive Rock-wise, been there and not really impress with it when it was in Oblivion.


People wanted content of the past game. I would not consider graphics to be presented in a glorified way. Graphic may brings people in, but the game needed to have decent amount of content to make the people stay and play the game.

Graphics are needed for a game. Graphics are the very thing that make up a game. You seem to be missing what I'm saying. Even bad graphics are graphics. Every video game has graphics and graphics are needed for a video game to even exist.

I may be one of the few people that does not consider Daggerfall the masterpiece it is made out to be. It's not a bad game, oh my heavens no, but it is far from great. The simple removal of the space-distorting dungeons makes the game incredibly short, and even more dull that it already is. Only a few of the NPC's have anything resembling a personality (which Morrowind is still somewhat guilty of, but to a lesser degree). Every town is essentially a copy of another one, but to varying sizes and with some building put in different places.

I can excuse the graphics, if only because they don't bother me. I mean, I love Arena, and that has some of the worst graphics I've ever seen.

But I return to my biggest gripe about DF, the flippin dungeons. I go to a castle in the Wrothgarian mountains, enter the highest entrance, go UP a couple floors, and it turns into a cave with pits and water. If that is not completly stupid, I do not know what is.

The main quest, as well, I'm not overly fond of. I appreciate their use of intrigue, but I'm given NO reason to care about its outcome. At least in MW and OB you are invested in the outcome, and play a major part in it. In DF, you're sent to Iliac Bay because you are trusted, not because you're the only guy left.

No graphic equal to playing with imagination and dices to even LARPing if one want to play a roleplaying game.

Its already a given that a video game will contain some graphic (whether its ASCII base or standard of Crysis). Its not wise to just say "Without any graphics at all, there is no game."

What I don't understand in any way is why Daggerfall's item variety, the ability to combine different types of clothing and armor together at one time, and the higher amount of clothing and armor slots disappeared and are no longer present in Oblivion.

Without any graphics at all, there is no game. It's true, and as graphics get better, the game is presented even better. Imagination isn't completely enough. I can imagine everything in Daggerfall in my head. It's really not that hard, but I want to see those things actually given form. That is why video games exist, to actually give imagination and ideas an actual form. When the idea of TES series was even thought of, I'm sure they actually thought of giving their genius idea form, and they probably thought of it as a real thing, but graphics limited their ideas at the time. Graphics can really improve on a game, and why not say graphics are needed for a game? the graphics are there to give form to an idea, and game developers have always wanted to get better graphics for their games. Better graphics do not only allow us to see the physical form of TES universe in more detail, but they achieve the original thought behind the series. Such genius deserves to be given form, a decent form.

Well, if you look at the armor system, it may make some sense. In Oblivion, each piece of armor has a set value that adds directly to your total AC. In Morrowind, each section of your body had a percentage. For your cuirass, only 40% of it's total armor would add to your AC. Daggerfall uses a Arena's system.

So, game balance.

Again, amazing; ya pretty much miss everything I point out about graphic and "no game". :rolleyes:


There no such thing as "Imagination isn't completely enough." If anything, graphic is just a template of what we see, but not a good idea to over exaggerated the graphic in cost of other things, or assume what the player want and don't want added into the game.


Graphic is limited to the performance of fire power the computer can and cannot handle, but it does not stop the player from imagining things that can broaden the gameplay in their style or enjoying the game and its lore the game contains.


Its already a given that the dev are not going backward with graphic, or the fact from podcast from Todd that they might be making a new engine for the next new game. Its more that the content (lore, gameplay, everything else that make the game tick) should be more focus this time around. Sure they will up the graphic, but I view graphic as secondary, or even tertiary when they are making the game a reality.

I would definitely say technological advances are no longer as groundbreaking (and thereby capable of making older tech obsolete quickly) as they used to be. What happened in the 90s? Let's see, we had a jump from 16-color EGA to full stunning 256 color VGA. DOOM which was one of the first 2.5D engines. We had Quake, one of the first truly 3D engines (that didn't chug along at 5FPS, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescape did). The jump from MIDI to Redbook Audio to embedded MP3 playing. Dynamic light? Reflections? Shadows? Amazing stuff.

What do you think of when you hear "graphical advances" nowadays? Pretty much everything within the realm of not-absurdly-realistic has been accomplished already. You hear John Carmack brag about his 128000?128000 megatextures. Valve flaunts their constantly improving facial animation techniques and realistic particle systems. Almost everybody can't wait to talk about how their next game has models with 1.5x as many polygons as that of their previous, as well. But it's nothing new - just improvements.


Priorities. Yes, Daggerfall's graphics left something to be desired, but Daggerfall also had precipitation systems, dynamic light, rendering of large open areas, and many other things that other engines at the time (such as Quake's) could only dream of processing.

Until the advent of DirectX and the popularity of Windows machines, computer technology wasn't very unified. There were so many different types of processors, display adapters, and sound cards - it was a real mess, and thusly it was very difficult to get games back then to work on everybody's machine. Nowadays when people think of processors they're comparing Intel and AMD. Back then, pretty much every computing industry was involved in hardware production in one way or another, with little desire to be particularly compatible/modular with others. IBM, Compaq, etc. Sound cards? Gravis, Roland, Creative Labs, you name it. Since this was in ye olden days of FM-synth, there was also an actual substantial difference between each of these, in actual quality of sound and synthesizers utilized.


I agree wholeheartedly. Features such as the ability to consume food/drink that had no effect on you in Arena and Daggerfall make it evident that the Elder Scrolls series has its deepest roots in PnP RPGs. I have almost every reason to believe, especially given the procedural generation used by these games, that Bethesda's intention was for you to play the game, yes, admire the scenery, yes, but you were to fill in the blanks left by technological limitation with your imagination. The games are games, yes, but first and foremost, they are visual proxy to help your own imagination along and to assist in visualizing your actions upon the world. I still hold this to be somewhat true.

I agree with you with lore and gameplay, but are you telling me that you don't like Oblivion's graphics? Also, they worked on gameplay with Oblivion. The combat system, magic system, and stealth system are all smoother, but the combat system is a little too focused on player skill rather than character skill. It could all use some improvement, some simple improvement, but TES series is being made more casual, and I don't really like it. I would be fine if they just kept Oblivion's graphics and worked more on gameplay, but to have kept Daggerfall's graphics would make the game frustrating instead of a masterpiece. Oblivion's graphics reached the point where TES universe is really given form, and I don't view an Elder Scrolls game as a game, but rather as a second life. If my character wants to take a vacation and enjoy a nice view from Dive Rock, why stop him? I never said graphics should be the focus of a game, but to ignore how they do improve a game is not hardcoe, it's just ignoring what they can bring to a game.

If you don't like dungeon diving you won't get along well with Daggerfall. EVERY QUEST is based around a ridiculously long dungeons, there are lots of things you can do out of dungeons, but the main focus is on dungeons.

Srry for late info, was too busy questing in Guild Wars. :/


I do like the graphic of Oblivion as it is already presented ingame already. Its more that the content (or lack of) are in Oblivion is the problem.


I am quite aware that the gameplay is good, but as ya say, its more player base then actual character base.


I doubt they would stick would stick with Daggerfall's graphics as technology increase in a much greater form to play around with.


We are not stopping you. And again, ya assuming we are ignoring the graphic, but in reality, its pretty much that we wanted the future game to have more content. Graphic is already a given.


Ehh, no. Not all quest involve going into dungeons.

Help please. I got out of Privateer's Hold and ran in one direction for about half an hour, and found nothing. There were no towns, no people, no dungeons, and no living creatures, except for a giant bat I found after about 25 minutes of wandering. I don't have a map and there are no directions or hints as to where their may be a sign of civilization, or anything. I can't find anything, and this is game is huge, but mostly empty, or at least that what it seems to be. Could someone please point me in the direction of anything? I just want one town where I could sell my loot, buy a map(if possible), and just figure out what to do. How did the original players of Daggerfall deal with this problem? I don't mind not having a quest marker and I prefer not knowing exactly where to go for things, but I don't want to spend the next few hours searching for anything.

I think you have to press like T or something to bring the map up for fast travel, or you could keep walking and end up somewhere in two weeks real time

Lol I find myself agreeing with this, the games mostly just a dungeon crawler.

On topic: I don't see how the why the thought of bethseda using old graphics is causing such a commotion when it's a given that they are going to improve, if you're wondering why people like morrowind moreso than oblivion even though oblivion had better graphics i think it has everything to do with content and what the world looked like rather than the engine that was used to present the world.

Thanks. I thought I was going to have to run around for hours just to find some town. Why make the game so large if so much of it is just empty wilderness? Also, since towns and cities aren't separate from the world map, are any creatures likely to attack them?

for immersion of course!lol really idk, just think of that as a warning of what could happen if beth tried to squeeze two provinces into a game


and I dont think the any the monster AI is that smart plus theres guards outside the cities patrolling lol

The key is w for me. Could someone please explain the fast travel system? What's this about reckless and cautiously? This also brings up another question. Why was this complex fast-travel system lost? I see that many things were taken out of TES series, but for reasons that I can't understand.

Reckless travel mean less time to arrive to a town or location, BUT ya toon is not 100 percent heal and higher chance ya be in town at night (in which case, the city gate will be close and ya either wait it out or climb over the wall).

Cautiously, ya travel slower, but ya toon will be 100 percent heal'd and a higher chance of arriving to town or a location at the day time.

Last question, simplicity and the Dev think it just redundant i.e. why add more choices if one choice does it already.

I think my game might be messed up for some reason. When I click on inns, there is no trip cost, but when I click on camp out, there is a cost. Also, clicking recklessly results in a slower predicted time than cautiously. When I got to Daggerfall city, I tried to rest(it was night and the gate was closed) then some knights arrested my character, he pleaded guilty, and then I ended up outside the walls near a ghost screaming "vengeance". :confused: I'm guessing my character was arrested because it is illegal to rest near or in a city, but I don't understand the ghost. I'm pretty sure that is the ghost I was sent about, but where did he come from?

Pretty sure its already camp out and when ya click it, with turn to inn, which cost money. Same with the reckless/cautiously.

Rule wise, it is illegal to sleep on the street. Its call Vagrancy. There even a rule book ingame one can buy about this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Legal_Basics. If ya want to wait around, pick the "loiter around" choice.

The ghost screaming "vengeance", that is a main quest plotline. If ya watch the intro movie where the Emperor told ya to find out why the ghost of Daggerfall is shouting, that the ghost itself. Ya have to find out why by investigating; good starting place is the palace.