Daggerfall style fatigue : V

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:34 am

T'was the only style that really made sense. It depleted slowly throughout the day, and only regenerated when you slept. Can we please have this back :sadvaultboy:

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:34 am

Thats pretty cool.

I'd prefer that.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:53 am

If it is any comfort, Fatigue is now Stamina in Skyrim.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:59 am

If it is any comfort, Fatigue is not Stamina in Skyrim.

Oh yeah, forgot. Okay, the name makes more sense... now I'd like for the actual mechanic to make sense (again).

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:26 am

Well, there's two types of fatigue. If you walked all day, you'd probably be pretty bushed. But you could still sprint for a minute if you had too. Now, if you were running around in armor, swinging your weapon for half an hour, you might collapse.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:45 am

I cannot stress this enough. Yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, applied to NPCs as well as PCs.
No more of the easy-come-easy-go Fatigue from Morrowhine and Oblividumb that made the Hand-to-Hand Combat's unique quality (nonlethal damage) completely useless, and allow us to fight an entire battle using High Mobility (But fewer of such battles between rests).

Warriors have Strength to carry them through combat encounters
Mages have their mana pool.
Let Stealth/Mobility-based characters use Stamina to carry them through conflict.

» Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:00 pm

T'was the only style that really made sense. It depleted slowly throughout the day, and only regenerated when you slept. Can we please have this back :sadvaultboy:

That doesn't make sense at all. That would work in the context of a New Vegas-style hardcoe mode SLP meter (which I'm REALLY hoping they have), but actual fatigue is built up VERY quickly from intense physical activity. Combat definitely counts as intense physical activity, and sprint has been added, which would also drain fatigue very fast.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:53 am

I felt it restricted my play style and bound me to some sort of clock, I hated it
plus the way stamina works (like oblivion's and doubles as a sprint meter) is already confirmed for skyrim

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:51 am

I like to see fatigue play a role in everything like how it worked in morrowind.

If you had 0 fatigue left in Morrowind, it was like having a good 20 pooiint taken off all your skills....you had more trouble doing damage, casting spells....I'd love ot see you move slower and have a number of major handicaps when you have low fatigue.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:52 pm

That doesn't make sense at all. That would work in the context of a New Vegas-style hardcoe mode (which I'm REALLY hoping they have), but actual fatigue is built up VERY quickly from intense physical activity. Combat definitely counts as intense physical activity, and sprint has been added, which would also drain fatigue very fast.

The problem is the TES games use Fatigue to measure both "winded" and "Nonlethal damage."

You'd be surprised at how little the mild discomfort of running for a few minutes at a time is brushed aside when you're life's in danger. You can run even longer if you're conditioned to do so (Human's first hunting technique: Run down faster animals by running longer. Humans are built with legendary stamina. Many of us are just too lazy to use it anymore)

As someone who's been in through several periods of intense physical activity, I can attest there's a point that the fatigue and discomfort just vanish, and the body's able to engage in high-performance activity for hours. It's just really, really uncomfortable to get into if you're not used to it.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:22 am

I like to see fatigue play a role in everything like how it worked in morrowind.

If you had 0 fatigue left in Morrowind, it was like having a good 20 pooiint taken off all your skills....you had more trouble doing damage, casting spells....I'd love ot see you move slower and have a number of major handicaps when you have low fatigue.

Yes, I agree with you here. It makes sense that if I am tired or fatigued, I will not be able to swing a sword as well, jump as high, or pick a lock with ease. In real life I'm too lazy to get out of bed and pee if I'm bushed. Maybe that was too much info, sorry.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:06 am

Yes, I agree with you here. It makes sense that if I am tired or fatigued, I will not be able to swing a sword as well, jump as high, or pick a lock with ease. In real life I'm too lazy to get out of bed and pee if I'm bushed. Maybe that was too much info, sorry.

That's because you're horribly out of shape. And Morrowind is the worst implementation of Fatigue in the entire series.
Get in shape, and try something that pushes you and doesn't let you stop when you get tired. You'll be surprised how much energy you have available.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:09 am

Haha I was hoping you would see this Scow2, it was this post that motivated me to make this:

Actually, I find Health Regen to be useful when Stamina and Magicka regenerate. It keeps my fighter going, and otherwise the disparity is really, really bothersome. I use a mod that lacks health regen in combat, but outside, I recover 1% HP per second. Unfortunately it does trivialize traps. On the other hand, it keeps the pace flowing. I agree with the OP that the games are better when it's more action oriented.

However, if they're going to go with Static Health, I hope they return to Daggerfall's Health/Magicka/Stamina system, where nothing regenerates, yet you have a large enough reserve of Stamina and Magicka you don't need either stat to replenish. Morrowind really dropped the ball on Fatigue by turning it from an interesting aspect of gameplay that limited what you could do between rests into a really :swear: [censored] :swear: annoying :swear: pain :swear: in :swear: the :swear: ass mechanic that needs to :swear: burn :swear: in :swear: hell.

Walking, standing, running, spellcasting and fighting should all drain Stamina, but none of those to an excessive degree - allowing at least half a dungeon crawl before needing to rest. It would finally make those one-shot "Potion of Respite" injections actually useful in the games. It also makes the Stamina-damaging effects of Hand-to-hand combat as useful as it was intended to be, so those you knock down don't just stand up again immediately and take the same amount of time to knock down again.

Really, the most [censored]-up mechanic in The Elder Scrolls is Fatigue, ever since Morrowind bastardized it. (That game introduced the two worst elements into The Elder Scrolls: Imperials and a [censored] Fatigue system.)

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:33 am

The problem is the TES games use Fatigue to measure both "winded" and "Nonlethal damage."

You'd be surprised at how little the mild discomfort of running for a few minutes at a time is brushed aside when you're life's in danger. You can run even longer if you're conditioned to do so (Human's first hunting technique: Run down faster animals by running longer. Humans are built with legendary stamina. Many of us are just too lazy to use it anymore)

I've actually read that the only animals that can out distance a human are wolves and horses. The fact that we can run marathons (26+ miles) is actually fairly unique in the animal world.

On the other hand, the most exhausted I ever get is wrestling. Something about having to use your abs, back, shoulders and arms to counter the weight and strength of another person drains you the way running doesn't. Watch the New York Marathon, then watch MMA. The runners go for hours; most bouts longer than 3 rounds have periods where both fighters are too exhausted to continue, punches come slowly and sluggishly.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:42 am

I've actually read that the only animals that can out distance a human are wolves and horses. The fact that we can run marathons (26+ miles) is actually fairly unique in the animal world.

On the other hand, the most exhausted I ever get is wrestling. Something about having to use your abs, back, shoulders and arms to counter the weight and strength of another person drains you the way running doesn't. Watch the New York Marathon, then watch MMA. The runners go for hours; most bouts longer than 3 rounds have periods where both fighters are too exhausted to continue, punches come slowly and sluggishly.

That's because you're using Hand-to-Hand combat, which damages fatigue

And not even Wolves and Horses can outdistance humans reliably.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:19 pm

Ancient peoples could out-run antelope and deer by bringing water and sweating why letting their animal prey overheat. Thoroughbred Horses can sweat well and can out-distance a human if they pace themselves.

But combat should definetely fatigue you and drop your skills. Blocking attacks shoudn't fatigue you as much so you could do a Muhammad Ali and wait out a fight by blcoking, unitl your opponent is exhausted and on the verge of collapse before you finish them.

Also if you don't sleep your maximum fatigue should drop.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:15 am

Humans don't have that exceptional stamina in the natural world...ancient peoples could out-run antelope and deer by bringing water and sweating why letting their animal prey overheat.

But combat should definetely fatigue you and drop your skills. Blocking attacks shoudn't fatigue you as much so you could do a Muhammad Ali and wait out a fight by blcoking, unitl your opponent is exhausted and on the verge of collapse before you finish them.

Yeah we do.

And nobody's saying combat shouldn't fatigue you. We're saying it shouldn't fatigue you in such a trivial manner. In Morrowind and Oblivion, Fatigue bounced all over the place way too fast. The game should require resting to recover fatigue. (If just standing or walking makes you feel better, you're not really fatigued, just winded).

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:27 pm

That's because you're horribly out of shape. And Morrowind is the worst implementation of Fatigue in the entire series.
Get in shape, and try something that pushes you and doesn't let you stop when you get tired. You'll be surprised how much energy you have available.

Dude, I took two naps while reading your post ok. I'm lazy.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:59 pm

The Daggerfall system does sound the best.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:30 am

I'd rather have oblivion style, it's not the most realistic, but it's not as much of a hassle trying to find a place to sleep.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:09 am

I'd rather have oblivion style, it's not the most realistic, but it's not as much of a hassle trying to find a place to sleep.

Well, bring back the ability to rest in the wild then. Perhaps sleeping bags could be implemented.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:59 am

eh i prefer oblivions style. i dont want to have to rest jus to keep playin. if they have a hardcoe mode lik FONV then sure that would be great

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:05 am

eh i prefer oblivions style. i dont want to have to rest jus to keep playin. if they have a hardcoe mode lik FONV then sure that would be great

Restore stamina potions are incredibly abundant and easy to make...

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:29 pm

And Morrowind is the worst implementation of Fatigue in the entire series.

How so? In Morrowind fatigue actually had NOTICEABLE effects. Was fatigue a wasted status bar in Morrowind? Mostly. They should have done it better and had it mean more. But in Oblivion, I never once paid attention to fatigue. It never effected me in a way that I noticed and cared about. If anything I'd say Morrowind had second worst implementation, though I don't have nearly as much play experience in Daggerfall and Arena. At least in Morrowind being tired effected you outside of mathematics (spell chance, jump height/distance, etc...). It's not going to happen for Skyrim. They're already too far into development, but really the system needs reworking. Fatigue needs to play a more integral role, and it needs to be more natural and thought-invoking, and a separate system, hardcoe only, needs to be put in place for sleep as well.

And yes, adrenaline can outweigh the effects of fatigue for a time, but fatigue in combat is still going to have a big impact, adrenaline or not. Many people don't understand how certain situations can push us to our limits, but on the other hand, you seem to be overestimating it to think that adrenaline turns you into the energizer bunny. In a combat where both parties are under the effects of adrenaline and are experiencing the same sort of thing, the adrenaline basically cancels out leveling the playing field. Adrenaline is more for man vs environment or getting out of a tight situation, not turning the tides in a fight to the death.

» Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:37 pm

If they had to pick one fatigue bar, they should absolutely pick Daggerfall's. There's no question. Using both though, I could see a place for Oblivion's fatigue bar.