Daggers and Short-swords: Not just for RP

This topic is intended for Elder Scrolls enthusiasts to share thier views on the current usefulness and characteristics of Daggers and Short-Swords, as they stand in Oblivion.

To start this topic off I will be introducing a viewpoint that contradicts the seemingly consensual agreement that Daggers and Short-Swords are useless when compared to a Long-Sword(LS) or Claymore(CM).

My viewpoint is this;

As is well known, Daggers and Short-Swords have a faster rate of attack when compared to LS's and CM's, that is; more strikes are possible within the same amount of time spent swinging. This is common knowledge, and many people argue that the speed factor is not sufficient enough to make up for the damage and reach loss when using a Dagger vs. a Claymore.

I will nullify that arguement with this statement: A Dagger or Short-Sword can be enchanted with the same effects as any other weapon, whether it be a CM, LS, Mace, Warhammer, etc... Therefore; any weapons with the same enchantment deals the same amount of magical damage (assuming you enchanted the weapon with some sort of damaging enchantment), or the same magical effect. If both weapons do the same magnitude of magical damage (Or whatever enchantment you chose), then the weapon capable od hitting more quickly will do more damage over time. And relatively short amount of time is required with an extremely fast weapon compared to a slow weapon to deal more magical effects/Damage. For example: Claymore of Doom is enchanted with damage health 15 pts, and Dagger of Death is also enchanted with damage health 15 pts; the dagger will be able to deal more blows in a shorter amount of time, hence more damage. When you compare the damage difference between a Short-Sword or Dagger and an LS or CM, factoring in the magical damage dealt over time within the enchantment, the Dagger or Short-Sword will do MORE damage than any LS or CM...

I had to mention this rather obvious piece of information after viewing so many Dagger and Short-Sword bashing posts in the Skyrim Section these past couple weeks. I don't think they need a x10 multiplier for sneak attacks to make them useful, as some people suggest. They're awesome! And, of course, RP'ing wouldn't be possible without them ( for certain builds).

Now..... do you feel as though Daggers or Short-Swords need a more powerful presence than they currently have in Oblivion? Or do you think they are already well balanced and useful as they are, like i do?

[BEGIN DISCUSSION]

I would agree that shorter blades do have their uses for the reasons you stated. If you intend to rely heavily on enchantments, faster weapons can deliver enchantments more quickly due to their attack speed. The tradeoff is, of course, they they deplete the charge more quickly. But they don't actually consume more charge per attack, they just hit more times in the same time frame, thus they seem to burn through enchantment charges more quickly. Does this necessarily make up for the extra damage per strike? I'd say it depends somewhat on how you like to play the game. I often just don't bother with enchanted weapons at all myself, because I'll just need to recharge them manually on a regular basis. I much prefered how they'd automatically recharge over time in Morrowind myself, and even if I do plan on using enchanted weapons, because Bethesda for some reason thought it would be a good idea to make it impossible for anyone with an armorer skill below journeyman to repair enchanted items, I don't want to use any sort of enchanted weapon or armor until that point. In any case, usually I tend to go with longswords unless for role-playing reasons because I prefer having a longer reach. It's easier to avoid attacks when you don't need to get so close to enemies, but I don't like to use claymores because they're just too slow for my tastes, also, you can't use a shield with them.

Regardless, though, as noted, the presence of daggers and shortswords is still necessary to make properly role-playing certain character types feasible.

Usually you can't start delivering blows blindly to your opponent. You need to time your attacks when your foe is not able to block or else you will be staggered, being unable to attack, block and dodge for a certain period of time.

More blows not only discharge your weapon earlier. It will also degrade it earlier.

There are many types of enchantments and only some of the damaging ones (the less powerfulls) will deliver all it's effects instantly. In any other cases, the same effect will cancel the previous instance. So a damage health 5 in 5 seconds effect dealing weapon attacking twice in 2 seconds will do 30 magical damage, while the same weapon attacking twice in 5 seconds will do 50 magical damage.

I agree here find daggers to be very powerful with an enchantment, and the enchantment does most of the damage, a level 17 sigil stone can do 25 point of fire or shock damage who is one point less than a daeric claymore. With custom enchantments the balance shifts to the dagger, with a dagger you can use a shock damage+ weakness to shock + weakness to magic enchantment with one second duration on the weakness giving you access to more damage in addition to more damage/ second.

A larger weapon does more base damage, this is most important with sneak attack however the base damage evens out on high quality weapons, iron dagger 5 – longsword 10, daeric dagger 19 – longsword 21. Longer reach, main benefit of twohands weapons against slow enemies as zombies as long as you have room to move.
The shortsword is a good compromise here, ok reach but still fast enough. I have found that with a good and fast weapon it often work well to wait for an opening then go in close and hack away, the staggering or damage prevent the enemy from hitting you.

How do you figure that? My impression is that the consensual agreement is that daggers and shortsworts are very popular. I also think that is the consensus.




Though I think the game is a bit unbalanced towards daggers and shortswords, the enchantment argument has a flaw. If you enchant with a soul gem then the effect will be spread over 1 second. I dagger can strike faster than once per second at the second strike you the damage (or other effect) from the first strike is replaced with the second. So it is an inefficient use of enchantments if you strike fast.




As mentioned above, I think the game is unbalanced in favor of daggers and shortswords and against Claymores and Longswords, from a pure stat perspective. Particularly Claymores since you can't hold a shield. In my opinion, Claymores should do much more damage to compensate for the weight, slowness and lack of shield.

No, they are very useful as they are. And besides the RP perspective there are also a practical advantage with a lighter weapon for characters with less encumbrance.
And in any case, a short sword is nearly as fast as a dagger, and delivers nearly the same amount of base damage as a long sword.

The only real advantage I see with LS or CM is the longer reach.

I briefly considered the shortsword as my character's primary weapon, but since she's a fighter type she would level way too fast with all the additional hits I'd have to land in order to kill stuff. Unless Blade is your secondary skill, I think shortswords cause a problem in terms of leveling.

I do not like the shorter reach of daggers and short swords. Some time ago while playing a claymore character I learned how to keep just in range of my weapon, but out of range of the enemy's weapon. Meaning I would never be hit. I was able to adapt this to use with a longsword without too much trouble. It just takes a little more back-pedaling in combat. But I cannot move in, strike, and move out quick enough to avoid being hit in return if I have a shorter range weapon like a dagger or short sword.

I also think that claymores are under-powered, give their slower attack speed, the fact that you cannot use a shield with them, or make sneak attacks with them. You should at least be able to the latter.

That said I do like using daggers when playing a pure mage. But only to block with. I never attack with it.

in terms of damage, daggers and shortswords are the two most powerful weapon types in the game, and you can use a shield with them. Of course, you can avoid damage entirely by carefully using weapons with more reach, but i think it balances out rather well. Here's the dps for all unenchanted daedric weapons with max blade and strength and 100% weapon health.

dagger 26.6
shortsword 25.2
war axe 24.2
longsword 24
mace 21.4
claymore 20.8
battleaxe 20.8
warhammer 19.6

I think the game is easy enough that any of the blades can work fine, so when I played blade users, my characters selected weapons based primarily on RP reasons. :toughninja: Depending on the weapon in use, they tended to favor one of three different styles for melee:

1. Claymore. Similar to what SubRosa points out above. Dance at the sweet spot that is the edge of max range. Hit foes from where they cannot hit you. A very nimble style. One consideration I discovered is that by dancing in and out of the edge of melee range, an absorb health enchantment on your claymore 'breaks lock' enough that I would not use that enchantment with a claymore. Carrying a back up long sword can help with sneak attacks. With a claymore, you can still equip a shield and get any enchantment benefit it has, you just can't get any blocking or armor rating improvement from a shield. Assuming master of block, a shield user can block up to 75% damage; a claymore user can block up to 50% damage without a shield and, of course he does not get any shield 'perks'.

2. Long sword and board. What's not to like? Very, very simple and effective. Block, swing twice, block, swing twice, . . . yawn.

3. Dagger/Short sword. Hitting real fast can indeed deliver lots of damage on paper, but only if the enemy lets you do it, and doesn't stagger and knock you around. Getting close can be dangerous, so these characters would use a spell to immobilize their foe (like paralysis), then get in there and rail away very fast while their foe was down. As Savlian points out above, altar enchantments take a full second (minimum) to deliver full damage, whereas sigil stone enchantments deliver all their damage instantly on strike. Sigil enchanting supports hitting very fast. Sigils also tend to provide more charges, which also supports hitting fast/often. The drawback with sigil enchanting weapons of course is that you are limited to one effect. Therefore, my short blade users tended to get a little magey, using spells to immobilize, weaken foes to magic and capture souls to feed those fast hitting blades. Combining the hazards of fighting close with a very fast hitting style, I found that an absorb health sigil stone enchantment worked very nicely on a short blade.

Really, I think they all can work well. I suppose when it comes to blades in Oblivion, my heart lies with claymores. Like almost all choices in Oblivion, I make this one based on RP. Heh, my current character won't touch any melee weapon at all, and does fine.

You guys are forgetting to factor in the difference in power attack damage.... a power attack with a warhammer will do considerably more damage than a few dagger attacks and it will do more damage to someone who is blocking. If the NPC is blocking with a light weapon they will be staggered more often than not when you hit then with a warhammer power attack. From my experience against NPCs that is.

So far out of 17 votes cast, only one was negative. Mostly very positive towards daggers and shortswords, with the posts backing this up.

So it looks as though the OP's premise is wrong. I don't see any stigma against daggers and shortswords. I wonder were that thought came from.

They would be more useful if you got a better backstabbing/sneak attack bonus for them, but since you get the exact same one for long swords even my thieves and assassins usually use those.

Shortswords and especially daggers also weigh less (usually) than longer swords, so they also save some space in your carrying capacity for loot and such, which is really important for a character with low strength.

I think it'd be realistic to have an sneak attack bonus for daggers though, but not an overpowered one. Daggers should be better for sneak attacks than a claymore, though they're useful even with the equal sneak bonus.

Yeah, claymores are not easy to conceal :thumbsup:

I enjoy the Stealth Overhaul mod. Sneaking is more difficult (easiest with no armor on; somewhat more difficult with fur; somewhat more with leather; more with chain; much more with heavy, like -25 to sneak score while sneaking wearing full plate or something like that). However, it is also more beneficial, particularly as your sneak skill gets higher. At a about 50 sneak you get a Greater Power "Assassinate" which multiplies your sneak attack by X3 or so. Also, the mod factors in the possible magnitude of the sneak attack based on the weapon. A small quick dagger can do more sneak attack damage than a shsw than a longer sword, etc.

It is really rather silly how the vanilla game works . . . sneaking around in plate armor and doing sneak attacks with a big 'ol ax

I love the little blades.
But I also like playing stealthy types and they just seem to fit.
Looking forward to their uses as dual wielding in Skyrim.

I really can't understand how a dagger cutting the throat, can damage a unsuspecting target more than a chop to the neck or the head with a two handed axe. Big weapons should have the same sneak bonus to damage. The advantage of daggers, should come in the form of penalties to stealth based on the weight and length of the weapon in your hands.

I like daggers and shortswords just because I do, but I think they lose their usefulness after a certain level. Seems like mostly all attacks will get deflected if you attack fast by one block it's like a mini stagger. If I played efficiently I'd go with a bigger weapon and just use power attacks most of the time. Gurkog I think is right about hammers. Plus when you stagger you can get in more than 2 hits than if you block and get a mini-stagger.

In a 1 vs 1 fight a longsword/claymore or an axe/two-handed axe will be superior to a dagger. Everything else is Hollywood ninja action movie. There is a reason why people in the middle ages used long, rather heavy weapons on the battlefield. I also agree with Amgepo that a longsword won't do less sneak damage compared to a dagger. It's just harder to effectively sneak and swing the sword undetected if you have a bigger weapon. So a sneak penalty (but no sneak damage penalty) would be the best way to go imo.

I also have a soft spot for shortswords. I like the way they look (the daedric shortsword looks very mean), and they have a nice balance of good damage and speed. I think the problem is for some people, there isnt really an advantage to using a shortsword or dagger over a longsword, particularly when sneaking. One way to remedy this in skyrim would be to implenent areas where you are expected to hand your weapons over to a guard (similar to fallout: NV), but with hhigh enough sneak you can sneak in a dagger or shortsword.

As I understand daggers would have a 10x sneak multiplier in Skyrim. I also like shortswords in Oblivion, they have better range but are still fast.

Absolutely. They seem to be far too weak to me. A dagger *of shortsword is not only faster but its so much lighter as well. Even though the claymores look like and weigh enough to hack your enemy in two, they hit like they were bags of pudding.


*EDIT: Was going to edit this to "or" but then it got me thinking... it'd be incredible to enchant your dagger with shortswords. Just imagine it... a dagger with shortswords running down the entire length of the blade... nobody'd mess with you if you carried one of those.

I think you may have spent a little too much time in the shivering isles. You are starting to sound like Sheogorath LOL.

I agree with what many people have said about shortswords and daggers actually being more popular, and not less as the OP claims. To my knowledge the shortsword seems to be the most popular among melee fighters on here. only .1 less reach than a longsword, but .3 longer reach than a dagger, and only .2 slower attack speed than a dagger but .2 higher speed than a longsword. The reach difference isn't very large imho. I still often forgo shortswords just because they don't fit my character's image.