If Dagoth Ur had won it would have been Oblivion that was invaded by Tamriel...

On the contrary, it took the combined forces of the Daedra, the Tribunal, the Empire, Fate and the Temporal Myth to bring down Ur - anything less and Morrowind, indeed the world, would have knelt in fealty to him.

I highly doubt that he would have brought religious and racial tolerance, as it was not a value that the Chimer or Dunmer valued. And unlike the Cyrodiilic Empire, once he died, there was nothing to replace him. Cyrodiil, on the other hand, has recovered from collapse not once but three times.

He still failed! Many champions have ravaged the world, but failed too and the price was severe! An immortal, with the heart of a god he tapped into, who also failed at causing the "chosen one" to be consumed from a disease that is no longer worthy to be compared to Nurgle's creations, in addition to extraordinary power and intelligence, would be even more severely punished than some mortal champion of the Dark Gods!

Of course he would, because all others would either be assimilated or destroyed. Nothing brings religious and racial tolerance like having only one religion and race.

Yes well, assuming he was successful he couldn't have died, therefore he would need no replacement.

It appears his key weakness was his ignorance; despite his web of influence, he was not omniscient. And Vivec and the Nerevarine used this to their advantage.

Plus, the Anhakulan ([censored] the spelling!) would have been the new god of the world. Daggy Ur would have just be the high priest (#2 guy in the world most likely), so even if he did die, #1 would have been hanging around.


Which is why he is a failure.

There's a chocolaty center, in High Priest. Ur would walk and speak as Akuhlakan would ordain him. Akuhlakan would have one dream: Dagoth. Dagoth Ur becomes god's mind and equal to god. Dagoth Ur is god. Don't try it at home. Or do, but Bethesda's not liable for you death, should a hero enter your basemant to vanquish you in your brooding.

What are you talking about? Dagoth Ur has died before, and resurrected. Some ash vampires have died several times. They're his nobility. An immortal, self-resurrecting nobility.

That is, admittedly, a very powerful ability. Unfortunately for them, their complete reliance on the Heart was their downfall. But to be fair, Dagoth Ur didn't know what lengths Vivec would go to in order to stop him.

I believe he truly felt he was doing a noble deed from his own perspective. I think he viewed this narrowing of tolerance, this authoritarian world, as the definition of freedom. The fact is, as modern people, we define democracy as synomonous with freedom, without realizing that other people could geniunely think differently. Freedom could be the freedom to have conflicting opinions or to have no conflicting opinions, to be diverse or completely homogenous.

Dagoth Ur wasn't taking away there freedom, he was putting them on the path towards the truth, freeing them from their sins. Its like to a hyper-moral or narcissitic, rigid and extremely faithful person views freedom. Being able to think differently to them, to be an individual, is not freedom, its enslavement to a wrong self.

To most of us this just comes across as Orwellian doublethink. But I think the right motto would not be FREEDOM IS SLAVERY but INDIVIDUALISM IS SLAVERY and authoritarian collectivism is freedom.

Hes basically the fascist-like nationalist of Morrowind. Something that would probably be held as noble and just in a mideval setting, though of course it seems that alot of our modern viewpoints have made their way into the Elder Scrolls Series.

Dagoth Ur was viewing things from the old tribal xenophobic perspective of the Dunmer. He wasn't really there to see the settlement and growing peace between different races, he was too busy planning revenge and liberation in Red Mountain. When he came on the scene, it was like he was still seeing things as they were seen 450 years earlier. So he is also an extreme traditionalist.

His major flaw is his self-righteousness and the fact that his perfect world seems very unattainable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktv2C9vnRKU

I thought Luagar2's theory on Dagoth Ur was that Dagoth Ur no longer required the heart as the vessel to immortality and that he could now 'dream he is alive' or something and is just like Lorkhan, a god thought dead by all but who can manifest an avatar of himself




@Luagar2: Would it be possible for Dagoth Ur to invade Oblivion had he lived? And surely Ur's people would be more powerful as they would be not only immortal but gods themselves

Depends on who you ask. In the real barenziah series of books, he is presented as a charismatic idealist, uniting all the civilized races against the evils of the world, and spreading the best of imperial civilization (free trade, racial equality, etc.) and integreting this with native cultures (I don't think he wanted a completely homogenised culture). On the other hand, others think he was an extremely ruthless, power-hungry guy - its hinted at that he murdered the previous emperor, that he set up his battlemage so that he [tiber] could achieve godhood, etc.

As to your second question, remember that the nine divines is as much a political construct as it is a religious one. The gods are real enough, but look at who they are - zenithar, god of work and commerce (ie, work hard), akatosh, god of time (the empire will endure forever), and tiber septim gives the empire a figurehead. It's not a question of being allowed to become part of the divines, but that it is good for the empire for talos to be part of the pantheon called the nine divines (the term "divine" itself is a term applied to the eight aedra and talos that only mortals use anyway, it has no meaning to the gods, the divines aren't anymore "good" than the daedric princes).

Tiber Septim > Dagoth Ur

Fixed. ^_^

I never heard that, is that in this thread or somewhere else? And regardless, neither we nor Dagoth Ur's followers hear from him again following being his being severed from the heart and killed.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/855475-when-dead-gods-dream/

The whole idea about Dagoth Ur invading Oblivion instead of Oblivion invading Tamriel is interesting - can Daedra catch diseases like Corprus? I remember reading something that might or might not be official about how the Daedric invasion of Black Marsh failed in part because of the swamp diseases being too much for the invaders to handle. (I'll admit I might have it confused to the reasons why the Imperials never fully invaded it).

It's funny to me how all of the same questions could be asked of the Nerevarine/Player enantiomorph. Both endeavor to be real in Tamriel, and both do so by re-enacting ancient myths with themselves in a prominent role. I don't think Dagoth Ur's motivations can be judged fairly by the player without some degree of hypocrisy, as Dagoth Ur is a mirror for yourself: murderer, thief, outcast devil and savior of the people.



Of course he was a noble hero with the best of intentions.

Yeah, i think you got the stories mixed up. Argonians we′re able to stop the invasion because The Hist called most of them back to Black Marsh and they stormed the gates (as Mere-glim tells it). Maybe there were not that many gates popping up in Black Marsh to begin with.

That is a very good point. No matter how much of a pacifist some may play there characters as, there are points in the main quest where you have to kill people. During the Erabenimsun Nerevarine portion my character started to feel like a tyrant. Yes, according to other NPCs that tribe's leaders were "war-loving", but still...I came away from that part feeling like I was telling everyone "accept what I tell you and name me as the Nerevarine or die"....which reminded me of the Dreamers' warnings that those who did not accept Dagoth Ur's leadership would be reduced to dust.

And then of course there is a time when you are regarded as an outlaw and heretic. Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine may not be exactly like each other, but the Nerevarine's hands are not exactly clean.

Dagoth Ur in my opinion was not good nor evil. He had some good intentions but did everything wrong, so he had to be destroyed.

He was just a cultural and social reactionary :shrug:

Dagoth Ur was insane. His intention was to save his people.
Combine the two and you have the recipe for a villian with ambiguous morals.
Add in the power of a god and you have a super villian.

That pretty much sums up Dagoth Ur.

I think it is a touch unfair to label the Nerevarine's actions as wholly hypocritical, due to the taking of lives involved. That is more of a personal player perspective, than a true comparison. Whereas Ur, was given a responsibility and faltered, given those around him and the issues of trust, the Nerevarine (excluding of course the arbitrary ability to chuck the Package to Caius in the river Odai and keep the world as it is for good), is driven. Yes, due to the comments that were scripted for us in the journal we keep, it seems that the player character really only gets two to three personality types, ranging from the reluctant driven person to one short of nothing more than Bug Bunny with Don Rickles understones. But the Nerevarine is in some ways a poor comical representation of the Story of Saiyuu's Horse. Do one thing asked, triggers a thank you from some and a screw you from others. They have no sense of themselves really (unknown heritage, unknown reasons why they were imprisoned, unknown why out of all the poor schmucks in Tamriel, they get saddled with the responsibility to use mortal ways to deal with immortal troubles), yet have to work the system in the most I daresay human way, with a little bit of luck, talent, a few friends you can count on.

When we play as the character, sure, the Nerevarine's hands get bloodied early. Thankfully, depending on you own player sensibilities, you can decide how at least a little how much blood that will be. Me, I tired of having to kill many of the Dunmer that I was charged/sought to save, so I made sure that I would give the outcast and witch camps a wide berth, or become chameleonic and walk through them. Talking to each and every Dunmer in the Ashland camp, you can see that not all outcasts or expelled persons are done for heinous crimes and such. Some it is just a difference of belief.

When I was writing my fanfic, I delved with this issue when I used the Bolvyn Venim challenge. Talking to every single person in his home showed that he was loved, hated, feared, and envied. After dispatching him in the duel, I went back to his home to deliver at least his sword and armor to his daughter(you don't have to in-game but as we all say, we play it as we feel it), and then retalked to everyone. Some swore revenge. His mistress, who I use as the protagonist in my fanfic, is destroyed. His daughter is hurt, angry, but respects that it was a duel, and says "You got lucky." His wife is thankful, and hopes that you keep her in the loop for future House help and status. Some of the others, worry about their job.

To me, of course, the Nerevarine is a person who at least is taking responsibility for actions that have severe causes and effects. Even when you confront Vivec, you can at least let him know that for a God-king, he svcks at his job so to speak.

Ur, on the other hand, defends his actions with either his strong belief, or his delusions, depending on your understanding of him. If others get hurt by his attempts, his reaction is more of an "Oh, well?" Like Vivec, Almalexia, and even some of the Daedra Lords, they feel that their actions are beyond questioning. Perhaps, some play the Nerevarine this way as well. I know my sister-in-law does. Her Nerevarine will dispatch anyone who didn't use the honorific of Nerevarine. MIne ran to Lokken to retire to a life of husband, father, and Castle Master. Like the fanfic, he walked Tamriel as one of those guys in some stories that gets driven to kill many things, not because he lives for it, but because unfortunately for him, he is good at it. Some love the Achilles archetype. Other prefer to pattern theirs to their own mindsets. Some, get very imaginative.

The theory was more on the nature of Dagoth Ur in general than what he can or cannot do now. I did make some speculation though. He was dead before yet he dreamed he lived, but it's possible that the Heart was the only thing allowing him to create such an avatar. With the Heart gone he lost his anchor here on Mundus, whether or not he could regain it, whether or not he could dream again is up in the air. I don't think the Heart was the key to his immortality, but I think it probably had alot to do with how he managed to be more than a thought. As for after his death, maybe he now resides in the place of eternal witness, knowing the dream is his but unable to exert influence. Maybe he's devising some other way to regain himself from the mists of the dreaming-sleeve. Maybe he's recycled at last. Maybe he's completely lost within the madness of the godhead forever. I don't claim to know.

They may not be capable of catching the disease but it can also be used as a curse, reference Dagoth Gares cursing you with it when you kill him. The question is whether they can be connected to the Heart of Mundus, being from Oblivion. The Daedra are part of their Prince, therefore part of Oblivion, so its tricky.

Can a part of Oblivion become part of Mundus? Can a Daedra have its essence become that of Mundus? Can a daedric spirit be unified with the aedric? Well, can mortals and Daedra breed? 'Notes on Racial Phylogeny' says there have been no documented cases, but 'Varieties of Faith' also says that Molag Bal is known for corrupting mortal bloodlines - how could he do this if they can't breed?

That said, I think there's a decent case to be made that they could be inflicted with Corprus, or at least that Ur could modify it so they could be. The result is up for grabs. I don't think they'd become Corprus beasts, more likely they'd have some sort of mythic sensory overload and explode.

I think so. "Dagoth Ur's Plans" says that "the only opposing forces Dagoth Ur worries about are the Tribunal, the Daedra, the Emperor, and the Incarnate." At that point the Tribunal, Emporer and Incarnate would be dead, so it seems only natural that he'd turn his attention to the one threat to him that remains. It does also say that "the Daedra represent no coherent obstacle to Dagoth Ur." Its true that they're not an obstacle to any of his immediate plans, but in the long run they may prove to be a threat, which is something I'd think he would take into consideration.

As Ur says, "[Akulakhan] will serve as the prominent banner and symbol of our cause -- to defy the Empire, to liberate mortals from ancient superstitions, and to glorify our crusade against the gods." This might not be explicitly referring to the Daedra, but I imagine they're implied within the mix.

Of course, once he conquered Mundus he may have no need to invade Oblivion. The sheer power of Akulakhan as a tower may make the barrier of Oblivion completely impenetrable for the Daedra, making it so Ur never had to worry about them anyway. Furthermore the sheer mythic consequence of him ruling Mundus may make the Daedra so weak that they couldn't act against him if they wanted to - personally, I don't think we know enough about the Daedra to say one way or the other.

Now, in terms of whether he could, again, the mythic makes it sketchy. He'd certainly have the raw power to. His armies are stronger, respawn more quickly and have a weapon which would make a Siege Crawler (or even the Numidium) look like a child's toy. But the mythic makes it sketchy. Could Dagoth Ur or Akulakhan even enter Oblivion without the universe crumbling under the weight of paradox? Again, I couldn't say...

Well of course you don't silly, no archenemy worth his goatee is gonna come back right after he's been defeated - gotta have time to scheme, devise plans, and find a fluffy white cat to stroke (and you know that last one is gonna take a while in Tamriel).