Irrelevant? Doesn't attempting to kill someone count someone as evil? If he's that obsessed with his cause then there is no question about it.

It would depend on what goals are really intended to be acheived. Sometimes killing people in war is unavoidable. (and I mean Innocent civilians.) But if you make a goal to acheive and its for the peopel your fighting for then to them your good. Its completely different on the other side. so its all about point of view.

In short, no, trying to kill someone does not count someone as evil. If it does then we can call you evil, afterall, did your character not kill people throughout the game?

I'd think one of the founding theses of the morrowind plot arc is to make you realize that there can be no clear definition of good and evil arch-tropes.


People kill people for all kinds of reasons-- some petty, some novel, and some grand-- but that does not make them fall neatly into the "evil" pile. Even the Telvanni-- an organisation that makes flagrant use of slavery is truly evil; It has its ways, and the empire has theirs. That's the only real difference.


As for Ur-- His agenda tends toward destructive changes. Many people, and many principalities of oblivion, (and even the false god-reflections of Mundus) would prefer if this did not happen. This is the real reason for his suppression. Calling him "Evil" because his motives and goals clash with other divine beings is a crapshoot, and a fool's game. Another crapshoot is to think that he is dead. All it takes for him to reappear is for a person to walk like he did, and like the stench of yesterday's dinner as it passes the 9th orifice, Daggoth Ur will walk among men once more.


Personally, I'd say that UR is faulted, but not entirely wrong. Vivec can be seen as equally faulted, if you examine him closely enough. Vivec has enough hubris to blanket the entire aurbis.

What if Ur was, himself, a tool? Is the tool evil?

It can be used for evil, certainly.

But even then, was he ever used for evil?

The Nerevarine, also a tool, was used to free the Heart of Lorkhan -- to break a Tower. The resulting crises could have meant the end of the Mundus, the Aurbis as we know it and, arguably, the Elder Scrolls universe in whole.

It is a poor argument that says the Nerevarine was not used for evil. And given the alternative you would be evil for sitting aside and allowing him to do what he did. Ur was certainly not evil for attempting to stop the Nerevarine, by any means necessary. Note, of course, he tried first with diplomacy.

Then you are left with Corprus. The way I understand the ES universe, Corprus ranks up there with the best of intentions.

I think Helton has the winning argument here. Both people were well played. (not sure thats the right word) The nerevarine by Azura, Ur by hatred and wanting nothing more then to Tell the imperials to get the hell off his people land. Kinda like an old man with a shotgun running people off his property when the sign clearly says "Private property. Any Trespassers will be shot."

Was thinking more Lorkhan pulling strings from beyond the grave in regards to Dagoth Ur. The Heart drove Ur mad?

I imagine that's what mental health must look like from the inside of an insane mind.

Hmm well that too.

Dagoth Ur was the one who found about about the Dwemer using the Heart of Lorkhan. If it wasn't for him, there would be no divine Tribunal or Nerevarine Prophecy. So Dagoth Ur, though very wrong, had the best intentions for his people.

But Dagoth Ur's plan was twisted and evil, so the fact that he was killing people for his plan makes him evil.



Yes, I did kill people throughout the game, and sometimes for bad causes. Perhaps my character is evil. But that's completely irrelevant.


Dagoth wanted power. And he was willing to kill people who got in his way. That makes him evil.




If it wasn't for him, there wouldn't have needed to be a Nereverine Prophecy, and the Tribunal turned out to be flawed and broken, so why do we want it?

I'm dubious about his motives to spill the bean though. With the nords and orcs showing up at the Red Moutain (which 'the five songs of king Wulfarth' attributes to someone from House Dagoth tipping them about it), the situation was confused enough that conventionnal warfare wouldn't cut it. But a small elite groupe could sneak in and get rid of Kagrenac.

And guess who was leading them because he knew enough of the Red Moutain's innards ? Voryn Dagoth. Who was tasked with watching up the tools, and managed to use them to link himself to the Hearth in the relatively short time Nerevar used to ask councel from the not-yet Tribunal.

My impression is that he was planning from th very beginning to seize the power of the Hearth for himeself, without giving a fig about the damage done, rather than simply wanting to stop the dwemers. And knew far more about hte Tools and their use than he told to Nerevar.

He EXPERIMENTED with the tools. He binds himself "with a ritual of his own devising."

As has been said before, I think Lord Dagoth was more in the gray area, he was messed up in his thinking but he wasn't really inherently evil... and then my Nightblade mauled him! :gun:

You're using circular logic. You say that Dagoth Ur is 'twisted and evil', when asked why he's evil you say that it's because he tries to kill people, and then when asked why his killing people is evil you say that it's because Dagoth is evil. That's false logic; you offer no actual argument or rationalization apart from your own preconceived notions... Try and explain why Dagoth Ur is evil without just saying that he killed people and that killing people is evil.

No, it's completely relevant to your argument; in fact it's what your argument hinges on. You said earlier that "YES, OF COURSE HE'S EVIL! HE TRIES TO KILL YOU!". You even put it in big letters to make your point clear. If your character is evil, then how is Dagoth Ur evil for trying to kill you - wouldn't the fact that he tried to kill an evil person put him more to the good side of the spectrum???

Again, your only rationalization is that he killed people, but you've yet to state why killing people makes him evil. Answer this question, why is killing people evil? When is killing people evil, when is it not evil?

No offense to anyone, but this thread needs to die. In most cases, I like debate, but when the SUBJECT along WITH the THREAD is SO OLD, it just becomes abhorrently bothersome.

Dagoth ain't evil. Case/thread closed. I'd rather like to discuss the "http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=855475&hl=" idea that Luagar himself wrote about a while back rather than the mundane and repetitive discussion over whether or not Ur is evil. Because THAT is pretty interesting, and logical when you think about it.

My bad I forgot I was supposed to consult you before every post to see if you thought the topic was worthy of discussion. Seems several of us have made this mistake. Hopefully, in the future, we can be more accomodating and make this forum contain exactly and only what you would like to read about.

Wouldn't want you to have to refrain from reading anything. I know how bothersome that can be.

I'll just apologize for how that came off before I get warned for no reason.

Truth of the matter is that this topic is about 2 yrs old and lots of people have said the same thing numerous times numerous ways. THAT is what is bothersome.

why does it bother you.....why does it matter if its old..

I've already said: the same thing has been said numerous ways numerous times.

No, I'm saying his plans are evil.

The Nerevarine side of my character wasn't evil. =P

Killing people is not neccesarily evil, but as I said, he was killing people for bad reasons. Killing people is not evil when you're trying...

Ah. I see your point, although I still don't agree with it.

But to finish my sentence, killing people is not evil when you're doing it for a good cause. But of course who knows who's cause is good? That's when God comes in. But I won't get into that whole thing.

Originally probably non-evil (I won't say good, there are many shades of gray within Dunmer (Chimer) culture), but but psychologically evolved into arch-villain.
I guess hate, desire for revenge and millenniums of Heart's "radiation" were BAD combination.

I've said nothing new, but I felt I have to explain my answer.

What a question indeed but sadly this leads many of this age face first into the most furious and rampant intellectual masterbation seen this side of the internet. The main problem we face is with the notion of moral relativity. What is your evil may be my good and visa versa. That notion confuses some, frustrates others and yet others still climb a pedastool thinking this mind set is some sort of self made light showing the path of tolerance and understanding.

It's an illusion.

And I may be going beyond the scopes of this conversation and this may bore many to no end. The different opinions and notions of god differ greatly from one set to another so I won't bring much if any of that up at all. My awnser is thus; Dagoth Ur was evil because he tried to take away free will.

I mean this on a very basic level in the sense that I know there will be some [censored] out there he will think "but wait, the police is trying to take my free will away of killing people and [censored] their dead bodies." For people like that, hold on, there is hope, I will send you a shovel to help yourself dig your head out of your own [censored].

But for everyone else I hope that strikes a tune and opens up the discussion to something moral relavists and everyone else can discuss; free will. In this case I suppose it is the method, not the goal which is being discussed, but then again for those who believe the goals justifies the means, I have a nice chap in the 1930s-1940s who thought much of the same.

The thing I love most about the story/plot of TES3:Morrowind is that the main antagonist is in fact a tragic character. He could easily've been the protagonist of the story. For he is hated and feared by those who were once his allies and the person who's coming to kill him is his master/friend.

I pity Dagoth Ur. I feel sorry for him. And that's why I love Morrowind; because there is no linear good/evil side of the story as in Oblivion. Mehrunes Dagon is the antagonist because he does not know how to do anything else. Dagoth Ur does it in an attempt to escape fate. But how can anyone do that?

Well said. I've been a gamer for a long time and I have never disliked killing a "villian" as much as I disliked having to kill Dagoth Ur. In fact, usually I don't have any emotion about it at all. I recall the first time I played through the Morrowind main quest. After speaking with Dagoth Ur, I thought, "Aww, I do NOT want to kill this guy." His dialog seemed to give a glimpse of the mer that he used to be.

Of course in my current game he still lives and will continue to live. And I think this has been my favorite Morrowind play-through.

Man talk about intellectual posing.

Hey guys, you remember Hitler? Yeah that guy and with the jews and EVIL! EVIL EVVVIL WARAHAAVIL!

Can't even seem to have a discussion about a fictional character in a fictional universe without pulling out the Hitler. Mmm-Mmm good.

But yeah, cutting to the meat of your post, free-will. That's exactly what I said a few years ago but I have developed a very different understanding of the ES universe and many of its key players since then.

We're all RPGamers, right? And we know what that implies? We all have several to dozens of alter-egos in our head who we have allowed to run things on occasion. For me, personally, these alter-egos aren't very different from myself, only maginally. But they are different. They live in different worlds, have seen different things, and have different mores. Thing is, I control them. I say when the switch is flipped, when that character is allowed out of the box, usually while playing a game. But what if I lost that ability? What if I couldn't control them and they started acting independently, simultaneously, in my skull?

What if they took over and I stopped being self-aware? And then they each developed hundreds and thousands of alternate personalities of their own, and no one's steering the boat anymore?

Yeah, this is about free will. Do those alter-egos have the right to free will?

If somehow I reach out to one of them, sub-consciously, and point them in the right direction to heal me -- am I wrong? Is that "person" I'm manipulating evil?