Mmh?



It was. My mistake.



Mmh?

Such such idiocy! Why did they kill the Potentate!? Why!?

Of course if they hadn't they'd be mocked by the DB for ages... Oh well, peace out Versy...

Oh, of course. I completely agree on all of this. I was simply making statements regarding UESP's information, making speculations and etc. Personally, I just took it as it was and considered the Sithis to be their name for Chaos, while others call him by a different name. (Basically, they gave a new/different persona to something, just like every other race/clan/village/faction/etc does.)

But the trickery of Daedric Princes and etc is very interesting, and the extent they'll go to. Though, in all seriousness, I doubt we'll ever find out who Sithis is, if anyone. I think it'll stay a secret.

Did you read the second post?

I did, but I feel as if there's more information to it than just in the second post. It doesn't explain enough to me.

Care to elaborate?

From your Morrowind DB link:


This is the first line that rings a bell - it may just be an echo but it reminds me of the 'creed' of the minions of Mehrunes Dagon as revealed in Battlespire and echoed elsewhere, that Daedra see humans as game in the hunt and the 'bigger' the better.

editing

Noted the confusion in the Oblivion texts, there is one aspect of this Lore that intrigues/confuses me. The linking of PSJJJJ, Sithis and PSJII. I had seen PSJJ etc as the contemplative/teaching order of the Isle of Arteum. And also as the 'source' from which the mages Guild drew their inspiration and founder. Hard to see the Mages Guild as the controller of a bunch of assassins, but then one bad apple. Note that the Chimer came from Summerset Isle originally and Sotha-Sil was at one time a teacher on Arteum.

The context of this cross-reference is so far from the original texts that it is hard to make the connection - but if the PSJJ/Sithis thing is to be fully credited and not mere fancy on some writer's part then the Morag Tong and later the Dark Brotherhood are the tools and offshots of Arteum - and that charming tale of the ex-thief turned granny carefully avoids discussion of the 'religious' aspects of the DB - which lends credence to the tale.

The Septim/Talos/.... thing is all about murder. So, for example is the real head of the Dark Brotherhood Talos?

The link between Arteum and the Assassins Guilds is not as far-fetched as it may seem. Note that Sotha-Sil with his fellows of the Tribunal murdered their way to semi-godhood and Vivec lays claim to a close relationsionship with Mephala, goddess of lies, PLOTS and murder - and must be the actual head of the Morag Tong if he really has supplanted Mephala - therefore as one has to believe that Vivec lies whenever it suits his purpose how can we credit any tales he has left of himself? And so who was Vivec really, originally?

And what allows such speculation? Both the 'in your face' string of facts and the nature of lies.

we, at least, know his name started with a "V" since that's what everyone called the mortal man. Of course, everyone called the pre-godhood tribunal by their initials. I dunno. Possibly the names they now go by were their names all along, but in Vivec's case, I doubt it. IMHO He didn't become Vehk and Vehk until he took on Mephala's dualistic nature as a hermaphrodite.

Wow, this just got really really deep. 1999 just may have got something here, hopefully you are right and it's not some book writer for Bethesda writing out whatever he feels like. Wait,

So if Sithis is most likely Lorkhan, and Sithis is or a great influence of the PSJJJ, Then your hypothesis is that Lorkhan and Mephala have a vast influence in Arteum and are directly, AND indirectly controlling the Morag Tong and Dark Brotherhood. And perhaps even parts of the Summerset Isles.

I can believe that the Tribunal is in league with them and Murdered their way to the top. But what is this about Talos and the Mages Guild? Please elaborate.

Has it already been mentionned that the statue of "Sithis" in the Vile Lair (urgh) is actually a Statue of Lorkhan (the removed heart is a big hint, is it not?) Well maybe Bethesda can learn from these "Lore Lols" as I like to call them, and from this point onward have some [censored] continuity in the Elder Scrolls Universe. One of the major consistencies in TES Games is the inconsistency of the lore. So Sithis doesn't exist?!

Yea, but the inconsistency makes it fun (though I guess that depends on the type of inconsistency). How do you get from this thread that Sithis doesn't exist?

Just as an exercise, try this ebil thought:

Thinking about anticipations, if Vivec is Mephala's son - then who could the father be?

Mora maybe?
Lots of knowledge and a very interesting individual... I can almost see the post in Aurbis News Paper advlt section.

He's more known for seeing a conspiracy in everything then anything else. This one can be summed up as "they must be related because they all use the same philosophical concept and act the same generic acts!".

Lore inconsistencies aside, both assassin guilds forbid betraying their secrets, so it's probably hard for westerners to find out a lot about them.

Even so, it isn't helped by the fact that we don't have any books on the Morag Tong written by a Morrowind native, aside from The Black Glove. The Morag Tong is important enough in Dunmer politics that the people of Morrowind should have at least some information on them and their history, certainly more than outsiders.

Hope I got you right, and there is that aspect, but if that were all it was proweler then you might apply the same question to Sotha-Sil. However there is no real feel to such a thought about Sotha-sil - it really goes nowhere.


On the other hand Vivec exhudes plots, lies and murders - plus he also allegedly achieved something that Sotha-sil, the famed PSIJJ did not. Where did the intellectual/wisdom/depth of character, resource for CHIMp come from?

"The Septim/Talos/wotsisnameit thing is all about murder. So, for example is the real head of the Dark Brotherhood Talos?" in juxtaposition to Vivec, the self proclaimed anticipation of Mephala being linked to the DB?

Also look at Tiber Septim's place in the structure of things - as God/head of the DB affiliated Empire and Vivec's place as God/head of Morag Tong affiliated Morrowind. The fact that the Imperial and Dunmer organisations balance each other so very neatly always niggled.

There also is the question of Why Vivec has 2 halves and 2 colours - could it be because he is half Daedroth? and the other half mortal or ' So that 'Aunty' Azura's curse could only affect the one half? ... and that puts a far more interesting slant on the Trial. Vice is nice, but incist is ...

Add in that Trial and the potential repercussions of CHIMp - to be one with everything and yet to retain one's own personal characteristics? NB for CHIMp read OMMMMMMMM ...

When Vivec became a 'demi-god' it became that he had always been. But now he is apparently THE GOD ... so does that mean he has always been THE GOD or the CHIMp? And so you might therefore look to see his nature expressed everywhere that might be appropriate within the structure of the Mundus. Because such a powerful attainment would have to be reflected by the nature of majica itself and made manifest throughout the Mundus.

Re the thread - the existence of Sithis should be about the existence of a dead Sithis - so in that sense he may not exist as he did before his little spat with Auriel - I suspect what was being referrred to was the idea that the Statue is not Sithis. But then people are also claiming that Sithis/Lorkhan might be one and the same - yet there are Loreful writings that place them as father and son.

So here's another narsty, insidious thought: Vivec = the son of Sithis and Mephala = Lorkhan ... although there is a question mark as to Mephala's age?

It may be that the nature of CHIMp is other ... but then Vivec still leaves a lot to be explained.

I really don't know what to believe, I'll go with teh Monomyth theory, Sithis is Chaos and the counterpart of Auriel, and all that Jazz. I think it impossible for Mephala to take the place of Sithis though, what with him not being a Daedra but something more powerful. OK It is safe to assume that Sithis does exist .Bear in mind I know that Sithis doesn't really exist. I'm merely talking about in-game beliefs here.
This reminds me of the thread in which someone said "The DB is for fourteen year old girls on DeviantART who think Lucien Lachance is SO DREAMY"- Obviously I have paraphrased a bit but I disagree with this statement SOMETHING SHOCKING. With the DB it's a little bit more involving than the Morag Tong. But yeah Lucien Lachance is cool. Until he's skinned and stuff. I really hope that both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood feature in TES: V. In fact, I think all the major guilds should have rival counterparts that are open to recruitment to the player. Then it would be verging on Morrowind's amount of quests.

1999:

I'll be clear about this upfront, I'm not going to comment on your post. The way you post makes that unappealing. So that is what I'm going to comment on instead.

Aside from posting conspiracy theories, you tend to be incoherent. This makes it is very hard to make heads or tails of your posts, let alone figure out what you are even saying.
So I would suggest you look up some material about writing clearly and making clear arguments. I don't mean anything complex, but basic things like argument structure and keeping the knowledge of the audience in mind.

Another problem is that your arguments and assumptions tend to hang together like loose sand. You'll frequently pose an assumption and reason on with it refuting so many established elements that any other person would have come to the conclusion that their assumption was wrong.
So I would suggest here that before you post, you try to refute your own argument. Reinforce all the weak links and if you can't make note of this in your argument.

Finally, brevity. Don't try to take on to many points at once. Just a few, once you have those, a few more.

Proweler, just what does most of the content of your post have to do with the OP of this thread? There are other places you can contact me if you want to get personal. If you don't want to respond to my post/s then don't.

As for what you appear to be saying about my last post (assuming it is not posts on other topics entirely that you are referring to) I suggest you buckle down and apply your own logic to adding something definite and relevant. What you have posted above is so nebulous that I find it impossible to identify what you are referring to.

My approach in this thread? Simply nothing ventured, nothing gained. Sometimes there is value in adding a link and a short comment, but there is usually more to this Forum than that and frankly much of the content that is being examined is awesomely complex - you just can't do it justice with one-liners, or by taking it one point per post. In this thread I added stuff that I see as being germain and having relevance. If you cannot see the relevance of something then feel free to identify it or state what you do not understand - and generally I will happily try to explain in other words.


It's unfortunate if you feel you cannot cope with my style of reasoning or presentation - see, I have no idea precisely what you are referring to :shrugs:

There appears to be some sort of assertion on your part that this is a prettiest post competition. I don't mind if you win = fine with me, but that's not my style. I am not here to make 'better' posts than others, or prove my command of language is better or even as good as other people's, though that can be fun and I will not deny that I play that game very occasionally when I feel the tenor is good natured. Mostly I just want to explore the Lore and its possibilities here. I don't always have time to work on stuff and I just muck along as best I can. I suggest that you give up trying to crit me like a school teacher (marvellous profession that) on the quality of my posts here, because that is kinda pointless - and I don't think that the majority of people are here to contribute on that basis. The stuff I do that needs critting as to grammar, syntax etc is in other locations - please crit my stories here in Fan Fic or on other Web Sites for style and such - where it such is relevant and welcome. But could you at least try upping your approach to Doctoral lecturing at least so that we have some basis on which to communicate?

Usually I do find your stuff interesting - if there comes a point where I feel you become inflexible , or miss the point then I try to work around that and include specifics as to why - just being polite.

There again, if you can't be bothered could we just agree to have different approaches, and not repeat this, eh?

all the best,
raggidman

Mods - not sure my response and proweler's post are relevant enough - please move them to a thread where the OP is about a discussion on what this Forum is about if it suits? Thank you.

*Ahem*

Anyways 1999 I have to say that I don't agree with the Mephala being Lorkhan or Vivec being half Daedroth, I can at least understand what you are getting at and how that would work, but I don't think that the Lore Writers (if they even have those) at Bethesda are that clever. Also, I can see how you would see a conspiracy of the Empire secretly owning the Dark Brothrhood but you must realize the Bethesda was just trying to include the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion to balance out the gameplay and snip off the loose end that the Dark Brotherhood worships Mehrunes Dagon, and other baddies. They could use conspiracy as an excuse to have the brotherhood so close to home, but would they really let them assassinate one of their Emporers just to keep up good looks? I think that the Dark Brotherhood may indeed be controlled by some Daedra like puppets, but it is definately not the leaders of the Empire.

Oh, and what does CHIMp mean?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#7.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think 1999 is equating the idea of what those with CHIM do to what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong did, who was the Monkey King in Journey to the West.

If it's not that...then I have no earthly idea.

I read somewhere, in daggerfall I think. That the dark brotherhood were morag tong exiles

1999:

What I'm asking you as an act of common courtesy is this: to write your posts in such a fashion that they are clear and concise. Otherwise your message is lost in the effort it takes to make sense of your writing.

To be clear. I'm not asking you to bridge the divide between literary work and literary feces. I'm also not asking you to turn pointless pontification into one liners. Again, I'm only asking you to be clear and concise.

This is relevant because you replied to my post which obliges me to atleast comment on your reply. If you are however unwilling extend the effort so that I (and others) do not have too, then I would ask you not to reply to -or read- my posts at all.

Faldom:

Morrowind probebly.


http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/brothers_of_darkness.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sacred_witness.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/fire_darkness.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml

That should get you most of the story.

Nice one 946000 - MK loves that Monkey-King movie thing right? Try also looking at MK's postys - he keeps referring to the monkeys in the west. Why?

Well I've often thought he might be referring to humans and the Empire - but he could also have Arteum in mind - assuming that there is a Vivec/Lorkhan link? And assuming that a center of Mer opposition to Lorkhan is to be found in Arteum - and how could there not be given that Arteum draws it's members from all over Tamriel? And yes, I hope you noted that there is one known link for sure - time and again Vivec filled himself up with Lorkhan's power - from Lorkhan's very own Living Heart. It aint no ardinary heart is it? It could not still be alive if it was. So maybe you should ask exactly what the nature of that power is ... can a God's Heart think? Can a God's Heart corrupt? Presumably you will allow that in English and all the Latin languages the Heart of a person is more than just another piece of flesh.

Even if they started out as separate and different entities Lorkhan and Vivec are now directly and inextricably linked through the Heart's Blood/power.

Why - there is a lot of Lore re Vivec's achievement of Godhead - he wrote most of it himself, so do you believe it?

Well if achieving Godhead makes reality always so - then Lorkhan and Vivec have always been linked ... does it not follow? So then you must also ask what are the futher links between Vivec and Lorkhan that predate the Tribunal's use/abuse of the Heart - they must exist if what occurred at the Heart created a timeless 'addition' to reality - the paradoxical emergence of a god who had then always been. You might wonder if you can trust Vivec's account as he has 'replaced' Mephala as the 'Lord' of lies, plots and murder? Well fair enough - please do specualte. But you also have to consider the other members of the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur.

What would really anger the liar and murderer Vivec about Azura's actions? Not something that happened to someone else for sure - we are talking about a murderer and a thief who killed his wife-to-be's husband so that he could steal a God's power. But is there anything more insulting or demeaning to a God than to deny that a God's self is himself and has a proper place in the scheme of things? For once that link between Vivec and Lorkhan had been established it had existed forever and they were one ... as Vivec was one with the other members of the Tribunal through the Heart - and also one with Dagoth Ur! But that does not explain Vivec's apparent primacy in his relationship to the other members of the Tribunal.

As noted in other threads it would appear that those linked through the Heart do not die ... wonder why? Maybe because you would have to kill them all at the same time, and kill the Heart itself for them all to die. A powerful statement of the Nature of the Heart. I believe certain of the mechanics of that continued exisence are to be found in the tomes in The Imperial Library - you might search there or in the other related threads here.

So you can wonder what was different between the connection that Vivec had to the Heart (he kept coming back - he has written of having experienced death and coming back) but it appears as though Sotha-sil and Almalexia did not or could not. So how was Vivec different? What enabled him to master CHIMp? Obviously that has to be something major - would someone please give me a reason why a mere thief (class mastery normally of Illusion) was able to master such a thing (Metaphysics) where the devoted Scholar and God Sotha-sil (PSYJIIC) was not? I have offered one idea in my previous post. It seems there was more to the link between Lorkhan and Vivec than has been noted.

Then you have the statue in that Vile Grotto with the Hole in its Heart ... that's Lorkhan (son of Sithis? yups) but presumably Vivec is now accepted as being inextricably linked to Lorkhan - does it matter to you whether Lorkhan has subsumed Vivec or if Vivec has subsumed Lorkhan? Does the duality of Vivec's appearance represent the balance in Vivec of a composite of Lorkhan in one half and Vivec in the other?

By-the-by, how could Sithis not have existed/exist if he had a son called Lorkhan?

All this was inherent in my previous posts and you know the relevant Lore proweler. How could you not see the connections? But now as you have requested you have it in more detail.

Ooops - regarding conspiracies and the Imperial half of the balance


Try the following specifics from your own link no less:


If this Queen could use the DB, and her father and Grandfather etc, and openly published the fact - then does anyone really think that various Emperors have not used them when convenient? And we are all aware of how such developments regularly enter the game. Basically the game is full of things that you have to take for granted - but then you know that proweler. Why do you deny it when I post on the subject?

Don't bother to ask why would an Emperor do this? Ask how could an Emperor not do this? It is in the nature of Emperors to control all that is within their Empire and to add to their Empires - does that seem unrreasonable? Well that's the way it is, that is what Empire, for good or ill, is all about.

Conspiracy theory???? Just exactly what commentary on the ES political/religious scene is not based on or linked into conspiracy theories??? And umm, proweler, are you really saying that the fact that Mephala, known as the Anticipation of Vivec is also known as the mother of plots, escaped your notice - you know this perfectly well so please do not dissemble any further. That post was about conspiracies because the Deadric Prince of Conspiracies was involved. Would you be so kind as to come down from your ivory tower and explain why that is not a sensible line of discussion or commentary? I've been trying to add to the content of this thread. You still have not refuted anything specific re Lore ... it really would be nice if you actually had something specifiic and relevant about Lore to add here. This is not about you - this is about what you have been doing in this thread.

It does occur that you are trying to negate my contribution here without referring to any of it directly because there is something in that content that you are all too aware of and are uncomfortable with and do not want by any act of your own to lend it credence as it might then spawn another monster Apochrypha, another 'heresy' might take wing and 'have to be stamped out' - to quote your own words. Too bad. I love Lore and speculation. In ES they go hand in hand. If you want to play the Jygg then do so. I'm not a Jygg who will brook no deviation from the known course that I have predetermined. My belief is one should respect the real contributions and observations that others make, no matter who they are, and so I try to build on them for the sheer joy of it. I don't try to kill the butterfly and pin its wings to my board.

One more detail: I quote the reply to the OP: "Sithis is the start of the House, before him there was nothing." You might ask 'What House'?

Hi 1999! Too much rambling!!! Wow exhausting post.... Anyway:



Kill the Heart? Can you really "kill it"?? Isn?t it the Heart of the world "for one was made to satisfy the other"? I think it?s a little far-fetched