Dark Brotherhood Questions : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:21 pm

I am roleplaying as a mage/archer who is noble and does good stuff not bad. In a previous topic I learned that Liches are not necessarily evil and I found a really cool mod that allows you to become one. You need stuff from the necromancer in Leafrot cave but I also learned that this necromancer can only be seen during the Dark Brotherhood quest. Is this definitly true? and if it is does joining the D.B. make me evil. I mean a lot of the quests sound pretty evil and thats my problem.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:30 pm

It involves a mod, so I wouldn't know.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:47 pm

Where did you read that liches don't have to be evil? I think they aren't evil i think they are brain dead and follow their instincts like Animals.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:26 pm

The Dark Brotherhood does not consider itself evil. In fact, they consider that Sithis, the First God of the Void, commands that type of behavior, so any behavior to the contrary would be evil.

Nonetheless, the actions of the Dark Brotherhood, not to mention how gleefully they undertake them, would certainly be labelled as "evil" by mainstream morality.

As for your specific question of whether joining makes someone evil, I would point out that someone cannot join unless they commit a murder and thereafter being contacted by a member of the Black Hand. It is that initial, evil action that draws the attention of the Dark Brotherhood. It follows that any member of the Dark Brotherhood starts out as a murderer.

If your character is "good", then it would be doubtful that your character would commit the type of homicide needed for initial Dark Brotherhood consideration.

My answer to your query is yes, being a member of the Dark Brotherhood makes someone "evil" by mainstream standards.

Yours in the Scrolls,

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

» Fri May 27, 2011 4:17 pm

The Dark Brotherhood does not consider itself evil. In fact, they consider that Sithis, the First God of the Void, commands that type of behavior, so any behavior to the contrary would be evil.

Nonetheless, the actions of the Dark Brotherhood, not to mention how gleefully they undertake them, would certainly be labelled as "evil" by mainstream morality.

As for your specific question of whether joining makes someone evil, I would point out that someone cannot join unless they commit a murder and thereafter being contacted by a member of the Black Hand. It is that initial, evil action that draws the attention of the Dark Brotherhood. It follows that any member of the Dark Brotherhood starts out as a murderer.

If your character is "good", then it would be doubtful that your character would commit the type of homicide needed for initial Dark Brotherhood consideration.

My answer to your query is yes, being a member of the Dark Brotherhood makes someone "evil" by mainstream standards.
Yours in the Scrolls,
___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Well the brotherhood also has approached me when I have killed people in a quest.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:07 am

Well the brotherhood also has approached me when I have killed people in a quest.

If you are referring to the arena, demoralizing the Gray Prince to the point of asking for death is pretty sleazy and is definitly not a noble action.

The game is SUPPOSED to only register INNOCENT deaths as counting for the db. Anything else is just an oversight, and for lore purposes you need to look at how the game was intended to run.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:56 am

If you are referring to the arena, demoralizing the Gray Prince to the point of asking for death is pretty sleazy and is definitly not a noble action.

The game is SUPPOSED to only register INNOCENT deaths as counting for the db. Anything else is just an oversight, and for lore purposes you need to look at how the game was intended to run.

I am not it usually happens when I do the Sirens Deception quest. When I kill the thieves it happens. That is not sleezy at all!

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:34 pm

I am not it usually happens when I do the Sirens Deception quest. When I kill the thieves it happens. That is not sleezy at all!

Yeah, but many of the DB quests are extremely sleezy. I mean the first quest is too kill an old man that sleeps all day. Unless you investigate him.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:23 pm

The DB in Oblivion was a little different than in Morrowind,in Oblivion they pretty much killed people who kinda had it coming.So you could say their methods at times were questionable,but it was usally justice.I can't remember them going after anyone good or decent.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:41 pm

The DB in Oblivion was a little different than in Morrowind,in Oblivion they pretty much killed people who kinda had it coming.So you could say their methods at times were questionable,but it was usally justice.I can't remember them going after anyone good or decent.

There are quite a few. The guy in Bruma (and indirectly his bodygaurd) a few people in the Whodoneit quest, Adamus Philida, and the Draconis family.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:09 pm

There are quite a few. The guy in Bruma (and indirectly his bodygaurd) a few people in the Whodoneit quest, Adamus Philida, and the Draconis family.

Spoiler

Yeah that woman in Applewatch was harmless =( Sometimes i just want to see the people who ask for the deeds to be done (we obviously know who the client of the Bruma one was)

» Fri May 27, 2011 6:47 pm

Spoiler

Yeah that woman in Applewatch was harmless =( Sometimes i just want to see the people who ask for the deeds to be done (we obviously know who the client of the Bruma one was)

We also know who asked for Rufio's death.

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:23 pm

We also know who asked for Rufio's death.

~~Who was that? I honestly cannot recall...~~

It doesn't matter, i just found out, thanks for alerting anyway

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:23 pm

In my opinion, the fact that a lot of the early dark brotherhodd quest involves the dispatching of fairly despicable peoples is deliberate - same as drug dealers, they don't get you started on the hard stuff.

Once you get used to murder, you won't have doubts about killing anyone, just like the others (remember that jolly fellow orc fondly remembering one of his missions 'she didn't live to see her 6th birthday').

There's not doubt thes guys fall straight in the commonly accepted defintion of evil and the quests they offer you are cut into that cloth. And among the best written and sometimes funiest ones in the game.

[DB quests spoiler coming]

One of the worst is in my opinion the one where you have to fake a kill - the guy is up to his eyes in debt, and asked the DB to stage a fake death - which would probably be pinned on someone pissed of by a large unrecoverable debt. As part of his deal with the Dark Brotherhood, the rat murdered his own mother - Sithis needs a soul, that sort of things....

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:22 pm

The CS tags the Drak Brotherhood quite plainly as "evil", so guess what? They're evil.

So is your horse, too. Evil.

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:45 pm

There are quite a few. The guy in Bruma (and indirectly his bodygaurd) a few people in the Whodoneit quest, Adamus Philida, and the Draconis family.

Yeah. I'm not really happy with the way the Dark Brotherhood behave when they're in their hideout. Like they were on their way to a Marilyn Manson concert and were kidnapped and locked in a basemant until they had enough angst in them to kill a cheerful Irish man with a stare and a frown.

That aside, well done to the man who designed the quests, because completing them really did make me feel like a despicable excuse for a human being; particularly the Draconis family one, where the old woman thinks you're there to pick a gift list for her children. Forgetting how convenient that is, it was still a particularly dastardly masterstroke.

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:43 pm

There are quite a few. The guy in Bruma (and indirectly his bodygaurd) a few people in the Whodoneit quest, Adamus Philida, and the Draconis family.

Out of curiosity, who asked for Rufio's and Baenlin's deaths ?

I have to agree, the DB questlines are great and deliver the feeling of being truly evil without any emotions, dedicated to the Nightmother.

Spoiler

I heard about this fast, fast horse from my sister.
I couldn't get myself to kill somebody innocent to get the inital quest going, but I really, really wanted a fast horse and was short on money for a long time. Then I met this adventurer in a lonely cave, he ran into bandits, well, I did the final shot and voil?, Lucien visits me.

It took me a long time, until I finally made it to that tavern and murdered Rufio in his sleep. It was too easy. My character being sneaky and stuff really loved those questrewards, just like a drug. When I started to get my orders from the Argonian, I wouldn't ask questions anymore. Just go out, kill target, get payment, go for the next one.

Then Adamus retired. I didn't ask questions, I didn't care, all I was excited about was the rose. How could I manage to hit him with that arrow, without killing his guard. Got disgusted by cutting off his finger, but bonus here I come.

The next step, the purification. I hesitated, I liked some of my brothers and sisters too much. Luckily I was given some poisoned apples, so the task of getting them to eat that apples won over any friendly feelings I have had towards them.

Then the betrayment, something was wrong, terribly wrong. The paper changed, the style of writing changed and when I killed that Khajiit in his house, the discovery, he had the Black Hand's clothes in a barrel. I screamed, what did I do ? At this point, I wanted to stop, but couldn't.

Ah, Lucien, we can still turn this, we can get the traitor and save the rest of the Black Hand. The disappointment, when I came too late.

I couldn't really stop the action and stayed silent, like I did all the time before.

When I as the new listener stood in the purified sanctuary and that new Dark Brother murderer talked to me almost like worshipping me, I felt strange. What is this brotherhood consisting of 3 members ? I felt everything was wrong in the end, we just killed each other.

Took a ride with shadowmere outside. It was night, the moon shining and I realized what I've become, an evil being, death written all over. Suddenly so lonely. No friends, no passion, nobody to rely on. The guards calling me dirt. The people in the streets, getting nervous, not telling me anything anymore. My only companion an evil horse with red eyes. Is this Sithis ?

Next day I see this Black Horse Courier. The Dark Brotherhood murdered Adamus, this noble man, who served for law and order his entire life and only wanted to have a peaceful retirement. That was too much.

I really stepped back a bit, watched my monitor and thought, wow, this questline is really well-made.
I don't like my own character anymore.
She is helping everyone and everybody now, trying to save as much innocent life as possible while praying to the Nine everyday. They just don't answer...

» Fri May 27, 2011 1:43 pm

Out of curiosity, who asked for Rufio's and Baenlin's deaths ?

Spoiler

Claudius Arcadia asked for Rufio's death, Rufio isn't as innocent as he may seem, find out more about Claudius http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Claudius_Arcadia

While it is not set in stone, the most likely candidate who when you speak to sound really suspicious is Baenlin's nephew Caenlin

I also felt quite guilty whilst completing the DB quests, namely the Draconis and Phillipa ones, luckily as you get to the last quests you feel more 'justified' for lack of a better word...

» Fri May 27, 2011 11:31 pm

While better then most guilds, i still found the DB lacking. They were just evil for the sake of being evil. Voryn Dagoth, Mehrunes Dagon and the Underking (Major 'villains', though i do not consider them such) had reasons for being villains, the DB just...are. Without reason, without a thought behind it. Yeah, to serve the Night Mother and Sithis, but... It just didn't seem like they got their evil-ness from their believes, they had more a feel like 'We're killing people anyway, could just as well send 'em to Sithis, eh? m3 b@das5!' instead of 'Lets kill people for Sithis'. In my opinion they were quite over-done.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:51 am

While better then most guilds, i still found the DB lacking. They were just evil for the sake of being evil. Voryn Dagoth, Mehrunes Dagon and the Underking (Major 'villains', though i do not consider them such) had reasons for being villains, the DB just...are. Without reason, without a thought behind it.

They're insane, that's their reason. When you have the benign insanity of Sheogorath making such a huge appearance in Oblivion, you need some truly demented folks to balance the scale.

Not only that, but alot of the quests are pretty funny, in a black humor sort of way. I found the DB faction alot better developed then any of the others.

» Fri May 27, 2011 8:50 pm

Not only that, but alot of the quests are pretty funny, in a black humor sort of way. I found the DB faction alot better developed then any of the others.

True. Somebody leapt at the chance to make it their own, even if we don't much like what they came up with.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:14 pm

True. Somebody leapt at the chance to make it their own, even if we don't much like what they came up with.

Exactly. I mean, I COULD have just put on the Gray Cowl and hack-and-slash, but there's no fun in that. Finding creativemeathods that don't get you arrested was half the fun.

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:32 pm

The DB quests are IMHO best faction quests all around, since Daggerfall. I mean in Daggerfall it was all just generic kill X (which happened to be an DB old member), and more or less same in Morrowind for Morag Tong.

Oblivion DB brings in some nice original (and "inspired") cases with good execution, and to top it off a nice twist in the end. I think the person who did them had to be a "fan"

And of course, there's them apples

» Fri May 27, 2011 12:05 pm

The DB quests are IMHO best faction quests all around, since Daggerfall. I mean in Daggerfall it was all just generic kill X (which happened to be an DB old member), and more or less same in Morrowind for Morag Tong.

Oblivion DB brings in some nice original (and "inspired") cases with good execution, and to top it off a nice twist in the end. I think the person who did them had to be a "fan"

And of course, there's them apples

The quests were well-designed, even if the DB itself was awful. The quests were very good. But the DB itself was just Evil, and not morally ambigous and the characters within it had no redeeming qualities.

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:10 am

The quests were well-designed, even if the DB itself was awful. The quests were very good. But the DB itself was just Evil, and not morally ambigous and the characters within it had no redeeming qualities.

The DB is a business, they don't have moral qualities. Nobody ever implied otherwise, although I agree that individuals should probably have some doubts (but they sure hell wouldn't discuss them with fellow assassins).