Did Black Marsh not have the manpower to invade Morrowind before Red Year?

Probably. The Hist did inject them with fighting mutagens to combat the forces of Mehrunes Dagon. However, it would have been harder to do it before, and the Hist are very pactient.

Although a bit cowardly to kick your enemy when they're down. The ends justify the means after all.

I'd like to reiterate that I sincerely doubt the invasion was because of Argonian slavery. It was because of dunmer mistreating Hist trees at some point.

I completely agree with this.

But what Hist grew outside Black Marsh? Did the Dunmer lead expeditions into Black Marsh at some point?

They had to, in order to capture slaves. And the only territory being held by the saxhleel is supposedly a contested bit of the southern border that could have one point been marshland. Dres plantations suggest fertile soil, which could be from decomposing Hist in the soil.

At least some people believed it was because of slavery:
"Ash, lava, and tidal waves had done their work, and when that was calmed, the Argonians had come, eager to repay what survived of his people for millennia of abuse and enslavement."
Infernal City, p. 261

Though it was likely over a number of reasons, slavery among them.

Reminds me of that story, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/ancient-tales-dwemer-part-ii-seed. Bunch of Dunmers settle next to an Argonian village with a hist in the middle, found out how the trees can help make resin, and had the Hist tree cut down.

There is really no define borderline between Morrowind and Argonia, as the Arnesian War suggested that Morrowind expand their border after a "saint" was martyr. So what the land Argonian took might belong to them long ago.

Hmmm. That does create an interesting thought. We've previously been assuming the Hist basically controlled the Argonians political actions. What if the Morrowind invasion was an unintended side-effect of getting the Lizard-folk ready to fight the Daedra?

Okay, bear with me here, the Hist call the Argonians back where they presumably lick more sap and get changed into organized warriors ready to fight the Daedra wherever they appear. Oblivion crisis comes and goes, but those experiences and sap-training is difficult to scrub clean. Thalmor agents unknowingly (or knowingly, doesn't matter) use this to whip the Argonians into a frenzy over their much hated neighbors to the north such that they invade a year (iirc) after MoT crashes. The Hist are alarmed at this and try to call them back, with some success. Convinced that they can't properly control these war-mongering versions, they put them all near Lilmoth where they wait for Umbriel to come so that they can throw them under the city and solve the problem. In order to do this, though, the Lilmoth tree had to cut itself off from the others so as not to potentially infect the rest of the Hist with Umbriel's corruption. In this way, the Thalmor lose control over the Argonians because the Hist have repaired the nerve that the Thalmor were exploiting.

That fits rather quite perfectly, if I dare say so myself.

It's hard for me to believe that the Thalmor's hands stretch as far as to manipulate Black Marsh's affairs. Plus you say that Thalmor agents could unknowingly use the doped-up Argonians to their advantage? How could they do it unknowingly?

I haven't read Lord of Souls yet, so I don't know if there's any information about why the Hist worked with Umbriel, but it seems doubtful to me, that the Hist would be manipulated by the Thalmor along with being manipulated by Umbriel.

Your argument also relies on the idea that both the Hist and Argonians can be easily controlled, and controlling the Hist seems like too mammoth a task for anyone. By the way. Does Lord of Souls ever explain why the Lilmoth tree cut itself off, or if it was the entire Hist that worked with Umbriel?

AFAIK, the Lilmoth tree leads the An-Xileel, and was grown from a rogue Hist.

"Though the Hist share a mind, it is possible for one to 'go rogue' and "escape itself." In such instances, the Hist purge the rogue tree. This last happened to a tree in Lilmoth over 300 years ago. The current Lilmoth Hist grows from part of its root."

"Only the An-Xileel and wild Argonians have complete access to the Lilmoth city-tree."

http://imperial-library.info/content/infernal-city-lore-notes

I don't think the Lilmoth tree was ever connected to the rest of the Hist, and doesn't control anyone except An-Xileel and some "wild" Argonians.

Plus, I thought the tree got the An-Xileel out of Lilmoth, and left everyone else to die. May need to reread Infernal City.

Yes. On an hourly basis, actually.

It trusts the accuracy of this quote from rising threat: Furthermore, I was assuming that no one outside of the Hist knew what the Hist were doing to the Argonians, seeing as it seems hard to pry information from them. So it would make sense that as they were reminding the Argonians of the slavery and terror the Dunmer struck upon their families for decades upon centuries, they'd unknowingly tap into their increased war-mongering.

Read more closely, I'm theorizing that the Thalmor manipulated the Argonians and the Hist manipulated Umbriel to stop the Thalmor manipulations. Yes, it assumes that the Hist do not have a 1:1 control over the Argonians, but that would make sense, since the Argonians do not have a collective mind and are in fact independent sentients capable of making their own decisions.

Yes, they left all the foreigners to get put under the bus, but the Lilmoth tree also ordered droves of Argonians to walk under the city. There was that business with Mere Glim blindly wanting to go under the city, despite knowing what it would do, and Annaig stopping him. I dunno, I could have my facts and minutiae backwards, I did only read Infernal City once, but I stand by the bulk of my theory.

All right, now that I'm more awake let me try this again.

Maybe WWII was a bad example, but regardless, an entire nation's population cannot "deserve" to be punished. Scrow2, give me examples of how nation deserved to be punished. And military conquest and treaties don't count, I mean the ciivlian population recieving the biggest blow by being displaced, slaugtered, enslaved, or simply forced to live ihn poverty. Not kings, not dictators, but normal people. Teachers, doctors (normal doctors, not the ones who did human expirements), engineers, ect. Basically, if you lived there, your guilty.

And also not by a people who acted exactly like them before they defeated them. It's not revenge, but justice from a more moral nation. Again, this includes civilians being punished. Tell me how they deserved it, and how the people who did it were better than them.

Certainly seemed like the world felt that all the Germans had to suffer, after WWI and WWII. Doesn't matter if they all deserved it, thats what they got.

Yes. It's what happened, but that doesn't mean that it was right. It's what happened, and it's understandable why people felt that way.

It's also understandable why the Argonians felt that way, and it doesn't make them evil for feeling that way. But that doesn't mean it was good.

well lets just say the hist were compromised, in a manner of speaking. it wasnt exactly umbriel but it had a lot to do with it.
there was an evil sabotage done within the an xhileel..and others, as well as the hist.

so no, morrowinds invasion by the argonians is still somewhat a mystery. We do know that part of its reason was that it was an act of vengeance, however that wasnt the whole reason.
when these things manifested is a matter of debate, as far as the rogue hist and the conspiracy within the emperor's hierarchy.

im glad many of you feel the argonians were justified, however given the circumstances it was just more bloodshed for ambiguous,(and from that standpoint one could argue immoral) reasons.

i see it as pointless slaughter. i give skrim at this time a lot of credit for at least offering solstheim to the dunmer refugees with open arms. regardless of whether geographically solstheim lies with skyrim or morrowind is moot. skyrim diffused and avoided a lot of tension in that simple act.

i dont want to dismiss the idea of thalmor tampering. given their intelligence it would be reasonable that they were informed of a way of corrupting, isolating, or manipulating the hist, and so do the same to groups and factions of argonians. it wasnt a matter if they could. its a matter of if they did seeing as it had already been done.

lord of souls is a great read. i would recommend reading it to any tes fans.

this all cant be blamed on vuhon, or hierem, sul or the anxhileel or the thalmor. its all a very complex web.

i stand firm in saying the invasion of morrowind was one of the first great acts of evil of the fourth era.it did far more harm than good.

also the hist were divided seperated and isolated. its all very profound and has to do with the way they communicate. and oblivion. and other things

I'd see it as more good then evil though at least.

Justified? Perhaps. Just? No. Right? Unless you consider shattering the Dunmer's national identity right, no.

Good? What on earth does that even mean in The-Elder-Relativism-is-my-middle-name-Scrolls?

Forgive me for asking off topic, but exactly makes morality in TES any more relative than in reality? For rational beings anyway.

Shezarr. Some hate him. Some love him. Others still think he was just lazy. It's all relative.

And how is this different from reality (except for Shor not being real)? People would judge Lorkhan the same way. Look at how some religions blame creation for suffering, whilst others blame humans for suffering. If we knew there were gods for sure, they would be thought of the same way, at least if they were passive like Aedra and Shor.

How people think isn't different in TES than in real life, except for the fact that it's hard to make a fictional character that is as compelx as real people. People in TES want godhood, heaven, englightenment, ect. to end suffering, like in real life religions.

But that's enough about real religions.