I was asking rhetorically; I meant that, when we're cheering on the struggle to defend mortality and the gray maybe, it might be worth pausing and considering what it is that the Thalmor, etc., are objecting to, which is a world of death, decay, and loss, in which an entire civilization that flourished for thousands of years can perish in one year of disasters.

Well in my opinion, the heart of the Thalmor, as in the true center of the organization is completely insane.

It's kind of cheap to have the ultimate motivation of your opposition be "insanity".

More to the point, the world we know is a mortal world, and defeating the current threat to the world, in TES III, IV, and V anyway, means continuing a mortal world, which is relatively comprehensible to us. That seems the conservative choice.

But, for those in Tamriel who know more about what's going on, it's mortality that is the radical idea. Sometimes it is connected to some sort of idea of transcendence, as in the Psijic Endeavour, or in how Vivec describes Lorkhan, but what such transcendence could mean or whether that was really Lorkhan's intent is not at all clear, and it seems as if very few mortals have any notion of this. And, what the Thalmor apparently intend may actually be possible: as far as we can tell, it really is true that before the creation of Mundus, all beings were immortal spirits. From a certain point of view, it's actually the Thalmor who represent the conservative choice, with the champions of mortality struggling only for prolonged suffering.

On this side of the Fourth Wall, I think we can safely assume that the champions of mortality are the "good guys", though with the understanding that as "good guys", they're in favor of a world in which cute little bunnies get eaten by wolves, when other possibilities may exist.

Anyone that thinks they can become immortal by destroying the world is insane in my book.

As a Dunmer fan, I feel the need to point out that your opinion of the Velothi is a bit higher than it should be. Let just say that I do not play them more often than other races because their jolly good blokes.


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Hell, just look at my avatar.

EDIT: I share SteamTeck's opinion on The Hist. A race of ancient trees that can take over the will of any lizard man at any lizard time on any lizard day? No thankyou. Lizard.

To those confused about Dunmer very devoted fan-ism. (I love that censor). Yes, while I can't speak for everybody, I like them because their jackasses. I feel that all the races of Nirn hate on another, and that the Dunmer are just a bit more upfront about it. I'm also not too assertive in real life, so playing a race of never compromising bastards (save for the Great House that shall not be named) is very empowering for me. Plus n'wah is fun to say. Maybe you like the Dwemer? They were a race of paranoid ass-gundam crafting-falmer betraying-torture device building jerks who turned into the skin of an even bigger semi metaphysical gundam. I also like Orcs for pretty much considering everybody outside of their race to be weak and scrawny, and trying their best to prove that. By that logic, I really should like Nords, Redguards, and Altmer as well. Many of them carry the same attitude, but I just don't find the rest of their culture very interesting. Yeah, I know, Yodukan's are the epitome of badassery, but other than that, I find nothing special about them. 'Sides sword singing, of course. Nords? Worship the Alessian Order with different names and slightly different tales/roles of gods, and are other than that stereotypical vikings. Altmer? Bit too 'civilized' for me. I will say I do like Khajiit even though they don't have that attitude, mainly for their moon based society, moon sugar, third person dialogue, and Dagon as a feisty moon sugar kitten. Would like Argonians, but I do not like the idea of a ancient tree suddenly taking control of my mind. I love the Bosmer's cannibal-carnivore based society, but don't like to play as them too often.

The reason people look at the dunmer and see a super race is because they're the jack of all trades race: the Dunmer are mighty warriors, because the Redoran have a great martial tradition. The Dunmer are brilliant sorcerors, because the Telvanni are masters of the arcane. The Dunmer are clever diplomats, because the Hlaalu are economic masterminds. Each race has standouts in its respective field, but the dunmer aren't shoehorned into one role.

The Hlaalu aren't master diplomats. They're just master kiss-asses.

Their hedonistic pimples on the face of Dunmeri history, is what they are. Well, that's what my current roleplay thinks, anyways.

Diplomacy. What can I say? Ba-dum tish. People also tend to associate the power of the Tribunal with the dunmer as a whole.

Just like the Bretons are well known and political warriors, the Argonians are well known mages/thieves/guerilla warriors, Khajiit are good thief warriors, Bosmer the same, Imperials well reknowned for their conquering armies and poltical ethos. Really, only Nords, Orcs, and Altmer are shoehorned into one role.

Although the Nords have quite the reputation for being only warriors, the College of Winterhold and stories like the Song of Hrormir proves they are above adequate in magic. They, like the Redguard are as race, distrustful of it. I think it's cooler to have less magic users who are incredibly powerful rather than ever third person walking down the street capable of throwing fireballs.

The OP is certainly glorifying Dunmer to an extent, but I do agree with most of what he says. The Dunmer have always been my favourite race, and will continue to be as such. We've gotten a lot of crap about being Dunmer fans since the first novel and the explanation of the Red Year, but I don't think it's something we have to explain. Yes, many of the Dunmer are rude and bitter and xenophobic. But we love them in spite of it. In some cases, we even love them because of it. There's no need for us to justify ourselves. They're our favourite race, and that's that.

But I have to agree, I irrationally hate the Argonians for invading Morrowind.

All the races need better writing. It's not enough that Cyrodiil City was besieged and its throne pillaged. Or that the Empire knelt down to the Concordat. Yet players still hate the poor moneygrubbers. No sympathy for sell-outs and pennypickers.

Maybe the Thalmor aren't "misunderstood." Maybe they are just crazy. Like the Zerg. Nothing misunderstood about them. They're think differently, and that's it. Except that there's no hot and magical version of Sarah Kerrigan for the Thalmor.

Or hot-magical version of Zeratul, I guess. Space elves.

What? Zeratul aint sixy enough for you? You've got some high standards, pal.

I was wondering who'd point that out, and then, "Why not? let's see who bites first."

It's a shame what happened to the Dunmer, but I don't really understand how it all went down. The Telvanni alone should have been able to at least hold back a sizable chunk of the invading armies, even after the Red Year. It could just be nostalgia, but I don't see Dunmer like Divayth Fyr having their asses handed to them by.. well, anyone or anything. He was like a pre-Tribunal Sotha Sil, and it doesn't seem to me like he would let some stinkin' volcano or a bunch of lizards destroy his Corprusarium (and the "last living Dwemer").

The Argonians were able to close the Oblivion Gates with such ferocity because the Hist wanted them to. They were called back from all over the world. I doubt such a force would also have been sent to Morrowind. It was likely a lot smaller.

I thing the turn in their history is cool. It's sad but they were a transient people once, long ago and now they are again. The cycles continues I guess.

You're right, not all of them shunned necromancy. However, the ones that did practice it would never have summoned or reanimated another Dunmer. Even the Telvanni had their standards, and that was it.

In my opinion the Telvanni just collapsed under their own decadence. All it took was a big enough push, and they fell right over. The lesser mages were the ones who probably fought the hardest while the greater wizards sat in a necromantic stupor in their enchanted shells, either oblivious or antipathetic of the world.

Even the most powerful Telvanni wizards wouldn't have been oblivious or ignorant of the invading forces. They liked their towers, and weren't likely to have just left or erected an everlasting barrier around them. Aside from Divayth, none of the others were said to be able to "teleport" (I forgot how they put it, exactly, but it was something similar to what Sotha Sil and the Psijic Order did/do), and while the main members of House Telvanni were likely on the mainland, it doesn't seem as though they all would have been completely apathetic.

You don't know the Telvanni well, do you? [censored], you could kill half the members in Morrowind, and get right back in if you asked. They just don't care. The Telvanni, especially the Magisters and High magisters, really do not give a [censored] about anything, unless they themselves are being [censored].

Even so, the Telvanni were the only ones bringing down the gates, but they still had a hard time doing it, as the rumor in Oblivion suggested. yes they could close the gates, but not fast enough. The magisters may be crazy powerful, but just like with their wealth, the distribution of powerful members to not powerful members is very unbalanced. Only the magisters and mouths hold any real power. Everyone else is a pathetic underling.

Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the magisters didn't notice or care about the invasions, till gates started popping up right inside their towers.

To note, I was a slave owning, treasure hording, amoral magister of House Telvanni in Morrowind...AS A SAXHLEEL!

Hell, Therana would have tried to have a conversation with a Daedric Siege Crawler about her Kwama egg collection. Dratha would have gladly welcomed the Dagonites into her tower as long as they were female. Neloth might have defended Sadrith Mora until it became unprofitable for him, and he would have jumped ship with as many trinkets as he and his slaves could carry. Aryon probably would have found the Mythic Dawn before they had even attacked, giving them tips on how to kill the other councilors. And Gothren was enough of a dike, that he would have put on his best jeweled, red robes to help the Mythic Dawn summon gates, if only for access to more Daedric servants.

The best nations are the ones that are held together with nearly translucent masking tape. It might be good for the ingame nations to be oozing with national camaraderie, but it's a lot more fun if a nation is made up of a lot of very selfish factions that all hate each other.

Congratulations, Morrowind! You went up in one magnificently explosive comedy of errors!

Now that I think about it, I think it would be appropriate for a mage in House Telvanni to kill half the members in the area. After all, that person is just proving his argument is correct. Also, what XxChaplainxX said.

The dunmer were dikes, and they made no way to hide it. It's why they're loved, not for being a nation of Drizzits with ultimate chainsaw katanas of doom, with the greatest fighting skills ever seen and magical powers that could slaughter nations, and were the most honor bound people this side of Nirn. They're just a bunch of heretical pissants, who make it known they don't like you and most of everyone, and would stoop low to openly kill someone for making rude remarks. It's in their culture! It was the teachings of Boethiah, Melphala, and Azura that made them who they are. It's no surprise murdering or striking low blows against someone isn't wrong or low, it's just business as usual

Stop thinking like an Imperial, OP

And to stress, my nerevarine was a magister of House Telvanni, owned loooots of slaves of all races (or at least was allowable), thinned the slave count by making them run all the way from the place they were bought to my Telvanni tower and through a daedric shrine without me assisting them (how they all survived still boggles my mind), horded a ton of treasure, and was amoral. A model Telvanni. Thing is, he was also a Saxhleel >.>

Or he would, if he wasn't dead. Unfortunately for Gothren, both the MQ and the telvanni questlines require his death.

And it's possible that every Telvanni councillor is dead by the Oblivion crisis, depending on whether or not the Nerevarine killed them to obtain their votes, whether the Morag Tong killed Therana, and whether Trebonius had his way.