I don't know if I prefer it to the mannish,* but I do like it. It at least has a clear goal, and a rather admirable one at that, rather than just the desire for continuation of regular, mortal, life.

*if such a thing exists. There is no single view shared by all (or even most) men, and while the elves are slightly more united they aren't all of one mind either.

I agree.

I can't claim to know [very] much about the lore, but the elvish view of things is much more appealing to me, if much too indirect and impersonal as far as re-claiming divinity is concerned. I can't help but wonder if Tiber took a more pragmatic path. Or the Tribunal...

I don't think they deserved it, but I can't blame the Argonians for attacking them.

I do wonder what kind of affect this will have of Dunmer culture, however.

I'd expect a radical change in Dunmer religious practices. The Tribunal are dead, the Daedra destroyed their cities. Outside of veneration of their mortal ancestors there is very little of the Dunmeri faith that hasn't been torn apart.

Think they might start worshiping Aedra?

I also want to see how they get treated in Skyrim. MK suggested that the Nords in Solstheim might be generous, but I wonder how the traditional anti-mer Nords will react.

Altmerwut?

But no, I don't think they deserved it. If House Dres got sacked, then fine, I believe the majority of them did. But other than that, no. I'll never like the idea that my favourite race were overthrown by a bunch of lizards who just happened to get very lucky.

Both Altmer and Dunmer seem to consider themselves to be better than others, but in different ways. The Altmer have a very high opinion of themselves, based mainly on bloodline. Dunmer, by contrast, don't put on airs, but have a low opinion of all the other races. And they view Argonians and Khajiit as little more than animals.

So let me get this straight...

The destruction of an entire culture, which includes many noble and kind people, among them abolitionists... Deserves to all be killed because of an immoral, recently discontinued law.

Right. Yeah... That...

I wouldn't say they deserved it, but I wouldn't say the Argonians' actions were unjustified. Once Helseth died, they Dunmer probably would just re-implement slavery anyway.

No, I don't like that the most fully realized fantasy race since Tolkein's got sacked outside of a proper game.

Think of how great TES: Morrogonia would have been.

Don't the Altmer keep goblin slaves? Or don't goblins count?

Depends, are you for gobbo rights?

Is it any wonder they turn savage, when they are brutalised by the Altmer? Probably they're just nasty creatures to be avoided, though. Still: I always though it was very apt that the precious, perfect Altmer needed armies of monsters to make things run. And goblins are no doubt capable of suffering, which they must do a lot if their masters are anything like the Cyrodillic Mer.

Regarding the Dunmer: Well, a certain very famous immortal hero was prone to freeing slaves and slipping daggers through the hearts of prominent slave owners and traders, which can't have been good for the industry. I also suspect that demand for agricultural labourers has been rather low, what with the blight, anti-slavery laws, then civil war, then the big floaty thing going boom. I expect slavery was, and is, in terminal decline among Dunmer, if only for purely practical reasons... It's hard to imagine the Argonians attacking purely out of self-defence (what constites 'us' for an Argonian, anyway?).

Morally... Well, I don't think revenge is ever morally justified.

No, and I think it had something to do with the Hist driving them mad, which sort of has happened in the lore recently.

It'd be like African Americans striking out in a civil war and violent revolt after 9/11 because they were enslaved by Americans a couple hundred years ago.

Not quite. Aside from the fact that Red Year came only a year or two after Helseth abolished slavery, the Dunmer were enslaving Argonians for thousands of years. If America continued to enslave Africans (all the while the raids are in violation of international law) until the year 4000 AD and the revolt happened a year after slavery was abolished by an unpopular monarch, and following the eruption of the Yellowstone Caldera, then yes it would be something like that. And more of an invasion than a revolt or civil war.

That definitely changes things. Thanks for the info.

Even as a Dunmer fan, have to say they deserved it. I figured they were slaves for a couple hundred years and revolted ~40 years later.

To me it looks as if the main scourge of the Dunmer was the Ministry's fall and Red Mountain going up. The Argonian invasion was a lesser catastrophe by comparison. I think the main cause of the surviving Dunmer fleeing to Solstheim was the natural disaster(s) rather than Argonian payback.

I agree that we can't lump the Dunmer into one group and say "They deserved it". "Deserve's got nothin to do with it", as Clint says in "The Unforgiven".

<3

Although I did like Sul, he was at least a character crafted with depth. Coo was a cool bit of dwemer craftsmanship. Vvardenfells demise made the Dunmer, at least for me, more realistic. Civilizations are bound to decline, it is the nature of things.


as for the destruction and invasion:
No, I don't think the Dunmer deserved it, not all Dunmer were slave owners/dealers/profiteers. Dunmers are also not the only race with a condescending attitude.
Likewise, not all Argonians are upstanding citizens of the Empire.
It was more of a political/religious opportunity for the Black Marsh to invade Vvardenfell and MW. I also don't think that Argonians were the only race that masterminded it, nor profited from the invasion.
Vivec abdicating, the MInistry of Truth descending, and the Red Mountain exploding were acts of god and nature in the Argonians favor. The fact that these acts occured as a later consequence of the Nerevarine's well intentioned acts that were to save the province Morrowind is ironic. Moral of the story, don't [censored] with Azura.

It has nothing to do with that, its how terrible Infernal City was period. The whole thing is terrible and shouldnt of been canon IMO and I hear that schmuck is making another book.

I hope you know it was Beth's plan in the first place.

Anti Imperialism isn't a bad thing.

Imperialism =/= Freedom.

Forcing people into your culture, forcing them to worship your gods, and making them disband thier own traditions for yours. Not what I'd call "Good".

It's grey. And I love that about TES.



I also don't believe that the Argonians were exactly innocent. Look into them. Alot of Argonian tribesmen frequently raid innocent passerby's. Worship a tree that causes people to murder villagers (Oblivion's Fighter's Guild). Again, grey.

But....the Imperials didn't force the dunmer to adapt their culture, they didn't force the dunmer to abandon the Tribunal, and they didn't force them to disband their traditions. The empire only has Morrowind for the ebony, glass, and kwama eggs. Hell, Morrowind is pretty much only part of the empire in name only, like Black Marsh.

Not outright force, maybe, but the pressure was there, most obviously in the form of Helseth, who did force the Dunmer to imperialize. The empire favors those who favor it, and hence those who are more imperial rise in power and the Dunmer have a pressure to Imperialize in order to succeed. There were also Imperial garrisons next to every major city, clearly asserting their dominance over the Dunmer. Hell, Septim manipulated Dunmer religion in order to gain social and religious control of the province.

But they didn't force the dunmer.