*Sigh* It just had to be isometric, didn't it. I've been keeping an eye out for news on this for a while now, but the fact that it's isometric is a total deal breaker. I would have even settled for a high up third person camera, but not isometric. Oh well, back to my third person and first person RPGs then. :brokencomputer:

Hm... Kind of makes me think of Dwarf Fortress with the whole "Losing is fun!" goal. If that is the goal. Try to keep your ragtag civilization together until your inevitable and unavoidably entertaining deaths. Except, you know, without the angry alcoholic dwarves this time.

Awesome. Turn-based, isometric, choices and consequences, and with Mitsoda it is going to be very well written. Now the game only needs zombies... Wait... This is too awesome!

Isometric was not a technical limitation, it was a design choice. There were already games in FP such as Arena, Daggerfall and a whole bunch of other games before some of classics were out (Fallout, Arcanum etc).

Anyway, seeing as I love isometric, and I've been following this game for some time, this is great news to me.



That must really be a big downer! Anticipating a game and then receiving news you wouldn't want to hear. However it's always been known that the game would be isometric and turn based. The only game which is featured on Iron Tower Studios and is real time plus in first person is Scars of War. Any game by ITS will be in iso and it will be also TB, since the developers prefer this type of game and their fans are TB/Iso fans too.

Looks interesting. It's refreshing seeing a zombie game where it's not all about shooting them in the heads, but more about the state and mentality of the survivors.

Me too. Blurgh!! Basically when you described L4D with but RPG aspects....thats what I want. I lose patience in things like this far too easily. It's why I've never stuck at Fallout 1&2.

I like isometric, turn-based games.... but zombie survival needs a playstyle that is more immediate. Left4Dead is actually a lot more than just "shooting zombies, lol" (I love strawmen :rolleyes:), and with a group of like-minded friends doing your best to stay alive, it really is a great horror-survival experience. Even if, or especially if, you aren't particularly good at shooters. It adds a lot to the tension. The same goes for Dead Rising. Yes the game is promoted as a simulator for killing zombies with ridiculous objects, but like many things in life, there is more beneath the surface. Actually playing the story seriously and running around the mall trying to rescue people can be a really cool experience. There is a sense of hopelessness and desperation when you realize that there are umpteen thousand zombies between you and safety, and you only have 30 bullets, a baseball bat, and a woman with a broken ankle. That sort of "Oh [censored]" urgency is hard to replicate in Godview w/ Pause. So, while I am waiting for a new tb/iso, this game doesn't seem like it is going to be it. Still hoping for the new D&D game, though!

Agreed a game cant have any fear, or tension if its turn based, you need to feel helpless, weak and like you said as though something is urgent in a turn based game you just dont.
@Emz yeah I was hoping for something along those lines. Only a few people will actually get it because turn based isnt that popular, they better hope thats enough to keep them afloat otherwise this developer is going to sink like a rock.

A game can have fear and tension if it's turn based. It can have everything you said. The only reason why you don't feel these is because you don't like turn based games yourself. I didn't feel any tension or anything like that when I played Left4dead. It was just a 'shooting zombies, lol' for me.

This man is wise.

The urgency that is lost from the turn-based format is arguably made up for by the sense of dread and inevitability gained, and by the knowledge that if you make a single wrong move it could be your last.

Besides everybody knows that only the manliest of manly gamers play turn-based games... slow calculated clicks, get the chicks.

You obviously havent had a team mate incapitated, while a tank is chasing you through a house while you try to get to the safe room that is 2 minutes away where the rest of your team is. It cant be tense and urgent when enemies are just waiting there for you to make your move, the games need to rush you, make you panic about what to do, a turn based game just cant offer that sort of thing.

You missed the first six words in my post. Try reading them again.



Not really. In a turn-based game, I have time to weigh my options and react to new situations. A single wrong move might be my last, but the same is true in real-time, and at least in turn-based I have time to think about it. In real-time games, you spend a lot of time flying by the seat of your pants, simply reacting to keep one step ahead of disaster. This is especially true of L4D, because disaster is pretty much always around the next corner. Turn-based games are great for tactical play, but panic inducing terror isn't really one of its strong points as a mechanic.

No it's just that I don't usually like first person shooters (usually, I do LOVE the STALKER series) so I don't have the same feelings you get when playing the same game. My point is both types can evoke emotions, it's that me and you have different tastes.




I wasn't directing my post towards you. I only used the 'shooter, lol' part from your post in my post.

And the fact that I like them and feel the same way he does doesn't make you feel like your argument might not quite make sense? Oh, well. :shrug: We're not saying that turn-based is a bad game mechanic in general; we're saying it is not a good game mechanic for a zombie game. Turn-based gameplay really shines at tactical combat, but fighting zombies isn't really tactically interesting. In fact, unless you go over the top with it like Dead Rising, the actual fighting of zombies is quite boring. They are generally slow, and even if they can move quickly, they are not very bright. Basically, turn-based fights against zombies are a snoozefest. To be fair, real-time fights against them aren't that much more interesting, but they are usually over much more quickly, either way that it ends. Which is good, because the point of zombie games really isn't fighting the zombies, it is escaping them. Evading roaming hordes, finding food and shelter, dealing with other survivors, that's the real goal. Turn-based combat is not required for any of these. And, in fact, I think turn-based combat would largely get in the way.

I think isometric real-time with rather slow moving zombies would be the ideal mechanic. Highlight a zombie and your character fires at it. Or swings a fire axe at it. Or whatever. Flows nicely, but avoids the "twitch" gameplay so looked down upon by many rpg fans.

Onto the next point, I don't think a large-scale levelling system would be very appropriate. A good stat-based character creation system is fine, but let's face it, the zombies aren't really going to get tougher over time, so there is a limit to how much better your character can get at fighting zombies until the game gets broken. Competent enough to handle a few zombies easily, but still likely to get slaughtered by a horde, is probably the best you would want to be able to get.

I've got more thoughts, but they'll have to wait until later.

But what you're arguing is how you feel about a turn based zombie game. I've been reading about this game for months now, I knew about the turn based combat and isometric camera from the start - I liked the idea so I continued reading about the game. Zombies aren't really the highlight of this game, it could have been any other catastrophe. I can't really see the difference between this game and any other isometric TB game, to be honest. The game really isn't about immersion in the 'I feel like I'm in this game' sense. It's more about being hit with loads of choices how you're going to deal with the people in your shelter, what type of leader you'll emerge and how you're going to solve the problems. You'll be sort of like a god overlooking the situation, and deciding how to react.

There's a topic every Monday on the forums dealing with gameplay, you could have your say there if you want to. I just want to make a note that Brian and his now wife didn't just one day think "let's make a zombie game! We'll call Vince now!". Their design document on Dead State was a multitude of pages long. The system has been really well thought out.

turn based combat? :facepalm: BAH!

Who says it has to be tense and urgent and action-y? L4D is great and I love such moments, but does that mean that every single game that has zombies needs to have such gameplay and atmosphere? Dead State was never going to be about intense zombie action. It is about survival, maintaining that shelter and interacting with people from in and outside the shelter. The zombies are more of an extra inconvenience while you're doing those things, and a reason for having a world that has gone to hell.


Everyone keeps saying that it must have immersion for it to be good, and that this isn't possible in isometric view but does it really have to? Would the Heroes of Might and Magic games be better games if it was more immersive by having it play out in first person?

I'm not saying it has to be immersive, but not turn0based...anything but turn-based.

Well you're not their target audience then. :shrug: Just like with any other game, there's a target audience.

Now you're being silly and comparing an RPG to a pure Turn Based Strategy.

Eh, I think it would be a little rude to go there and be all "ur doing it wrong" since the game is pretty well into development, and they wouldn't be likely to take random advice from a stranger anyway. Maybe if they were asking for that kind of input...... :shrug:

Which brings me back to my original point, in that they are trying too much for a small indie company with a tiny niche audience. I mean, how are you supposed to do QA and bug testing when you're trying this huge and lofty goal they're setting out? It's not like they're coming from good stock for having stable games, either. They could make the greatest game in the world but when there's high chances of it becoming either vaporware or so buggy it's unplayable it just seems pretty meh to me.

Either they'll have to sacrifice their original vision to make allowances for keeping to a schedule (which will be even harder when you're your own boss, I think that publishers are a necessary evil in that they keep developers from getting too wrapped up in their vision and actually get stuff done), since they've already made lots of promises and announced it ages before. Unlike some other indie games which just sort of appear on the market already finished.

Also, screw listening to the fans. Most fans aren't worth listening to, just look at the TESV suggestions thread here for proof of that.

I think their target audience is pretty big for an indie game, and it's been received pretty well on other gaming news websites. The turn based community isn't really small, it's pretty big actually. I think you're understating it.

I also agree 100% with your last sentence. I should know, I've read a whole thread once.

Yeah but let's be realistic here, it's relatively big on the internet and the indie scene, but the fact that it's digital download only on the PC pretty much guarantees it's going to be pirated to hell and back, I mean, just look at the humble indie bundle incident. Even if everyone who is a fan of old school isometric rpgs bought it, I still don't think that's much compared to the work they are putting into it if they are actually going to deliver what they say they are.

A good example of this effect was World of Goo. Critically received brilliantly, got awesome reviews and won awards. But that studio is pretty much dead due to piracy, because unfortunately, a lot of the people who are in a position to buy it (people who spend a lot of time on the internet and with videogames, usually exclusively PC gamers though sometimes they own consoles too) are pirates. And you don't have the benefit of gamers who aren't in the know about the game just picking it up like you would a console, or even retail/steam PC release. If Dead State goes on steam it has a better chance though, I guess.

I just hope you're wrong about Dead State with regards to that!