[Latisha Fry]

I don't think I have ever used a Fortify Health effect.
Reading through here I can see why it needs to be corrected, but I'm not too concerned on which fix gets implemented.

[Claire]

Not offended, but I think we can continue this in PM for the benefit of those interested in the original topic.

[Angela]

Gaius Atrius, it's pretty obvious now that you and I have completely different needs from a computer game.

I do not see it as a contest with the computer. If I want something to happen that I feel I'll enjoy, I can go into the console or construction set. By your reasoning, the console and construction set should be 'taken away'. They are the ultimate 'cheats'!

As it happens, if you went into the CS, I'm pretty certain you could replace/supplement the spells you see as useless with a scripted effect mod that gave you what you want. (See the mod 'Scripted Spells' for one way of doing so). Make it so that when Levitate wore off, Featherfall was cast automatically for example.

Honestly, how you choose to play the game neither concerns me nor interests me. No one can cheat!!! It's NOT that sort of game. If you want to play as some sort of contest with your computer, do so, but please don't insist everyone else do so as well.

[Nims]

I am confused as to why people have any reason to be opposed to adding this to the MCP.

It would be an optional tick-box like everything else in the MCP. No one would force you to use it, and the old option that we have available now would also still be there for people that want to use it.

If your argument is that it's a "waste of time" or "not necessary", well, two people could hypothetically argue that until the cows come home. I could even argue that the current "fix" is unnecessary.

The fact is, as is apparent through the poll results, many people, not just myself, would like a change to the current system as it is not currently satisfactory. If you don't like it, well then you don't have to use it.

In the end, though, it's all up to Hrnchamd to do it. As I said this is all just conjecture.

The point of this thread was to raise enough awareness of the issue to garner enough support to make Hrnchamd feel that it would be worth his time to implement. Without enough people supporting it, it wouldn't be worth his time.

[Lily Evans]

Gaius Atrius, it's pretty obvious now that you and I have completely different needs from a computer game.

I do not see it as a contest with the computer. If I want something to happen that I feel I'll enjoy, I can go into the console or construction set. By your reasoning, the console and construction set should be 'taken away'. They are the ultimate 'cheats'!

As it happens, if you went into the CS, I'm pretty certain you could replace/supplement the spells you see as useless with a scripted effect mod that gave you what you want. (See the mod 'Scripted Spells' for one way of doing so). Make it so that when Levitate wore off, Featherfall was cast automatically for example.

Honestly, how you choose to play the game neither concerns me nor interests me. No one can cheat!!! It's NOT that sort of game. If you want to play as some sort of contest with your computer, do so, but please don't insist everyone else do so as well.

A game and a simulation are two completely different things. The way you speak, you make it sound as if you are playing Morrowind as some kind of simulation.

I personally play games because I enjoy the sensation of "winning" and psuedo-accomplishment.

I see the enemies, scenarios, situations and environment as my "enemies" and a challenge to be overcome. If my character survives, then I have "won". As for completeting quests and such, that is another "challenge" that I have defeated. The game has an ultimate point, and can be completed, and the computer is my opponent.

The whole point of this change would be to create balance in the gaming environment, and create viable options. As it is now, Fortify Health just is NOT a viable option, and I and many others wish it to be so.

[Jessica Stokes]

You could implement both versions in the Morrowind Code Patch, and they would be mutually exclusive when selecting. And since the fixes are all optional anyway, you also give the the chance to use the bad version for those who really want it .

But about the cheating, it is irrelevant to this discussion, since those who wish to cheat can do it using the console. An exploit is an exploit, and fixing those is a good thing, since exploits are really bugs. For example, if a programming error rewards the player with million septims instead of 100, fixing that is obvious, as should be fixing this exploit.

[joseluis perez]

I am confused as to why people have any reason to be opposed to adding this to the MCP.

Like wollibeebee said you are being too pushy in presenting your own point of view. That naturally creates opposition.

Just what is this?

The point of this thread was to raise enough awareness of the issue to garner enough support to make Hrnchamd feel that it would be worth his time to implement. Without enough people supporting it, it wouldn't be worth his time.

PS. Voted against as I agree with peachykeen.

[Janine Rose]

Like wollibeebee said you are being too pushy in presenting your own point of view. That naturally creates opposition.

Just what is this?



PS. Voted against as I agree with peachykeen.

The point of that is to make sure people read that little paragraph, as people tend to get caught up in things off topic and not read a simple two sentences that are relevant. So, I felt like increasing my font size and color to make it more noticeable.

P.S. Implementing this isn't going to hurt you, so in retrospect, it was actually kind of silly to implement a "No" option. Better would be, "If you want the option available, which one do you like more?"

[Steph]

If it seems like I am being pushy, it is because the added option will not affect anyone in anyway negatively. The original purpose of this thread was a petition to garner support for the implementation of a new option for those that feel it is a necessary change.

Therefore, to be more in line with how a petition operates, I have modified my original post and removed to the option to vote no as it is completely irrelevant as an option on the poll.

[Jah Allen]

Agreed, we just need to get down to "brass tacks" here, as it were. (Yes, even me.)
The matter at hand isn't cheating, or morality, or the like.

This topic is about asking Hrnchamd to add something to the MCP, and what that something should be... that's all.
Either one approach or the other.

I think it's clear that something should be done, but I'm pretty much fine with either choice.
(My vote is still for percentage, but I admit it's just my opinion, regardless.)

If BrodieSWR seems too pushy, it's mostly because we all do here, even me.
This topic is about a direct change being made to the game's base code, after all...

Something being done to the game engine itself should be a subject of great importance to any Morrowind fan.
Considering that this is the Morrowind Mods board, that that should just about account for all of us...
So it's understandable that we should all feel a little hot-headed about it. (Again, myself included...)

[Talitha Kukk]

So, to simplify:

1.) Percentage based effect to prevent negative health underflow. (Prevents accidental instant death.)
2.) Dungeons and Dragons style Fortify Health effect. (Acts as bonus "buffer health", makes underflow irrelevant.)

Which one you vote for is your choice.
Regardless, it's Hrnchamd's choice wether or not to actually implement it.

Those of us who support this are just here to petition him to do this, nothing more.

[DAVId MArtInez]

far! leave hrchamd alone! if he wants to do it after reading your email he can! but if u try gathering an army and raiding his house he wont do jack for you!

[Miss K]

Amount of members who voted - Amount of members whose votes are actually displayed in poll options = People who said no.

Just sayin'

[Bitter End]

So having failed to gather anything resembling universal support to badger Hrchamd (note that the change may not even be possible) you now eliminate the embarrassing dissenting voices? In the name of not wanting 'negativity'? Some have waxed eloquently on why they think it a poor idea, but no; their view should be ignored

Note that Hrchamd has stated that the amount of space left for manipulation of the exe is limited, so a change some feel pointless cannot just be ignored if it precludes a change everyone agrees would be good.

Wiping out my vote? A very low blow. Unworthy of you. Words fail me.

I think this is a poor idea because Hrchamd's time is limited and to the free benefit of us all. He should not be badgered in this way. Available exe space should be conserved for changes most agree on.

You've made your request.
Edt: You should ask a mod to change the thread title as it is no longer for/to the whole community.

[Project]

nicely said symon.

if people start rallying together to make some one do something they should remember:
1. modding is a hobbie
2. because of that u can make ppl do what u want
3. why would he\she do something for you if u force them to?

he's not gonna be scared into submission, he cant be forced to do it, and even your "army" will probably just make him leave that modding scene rather than do what u want.
have u made any mods? if u have u should know that moddings about fun right? when u get bored of something u dont want to do it anymore. and what would u do if a bunch of "community members" gathered together to do something u didn't want to do for your own reasons. a nice please? please????? would be good. but obviously he hasn't replied. he's probably ignoring requests like HEAPS of other modders do. u honestly think starting a poll about it with a waaaaaay to long post that looks like something a politician wrote will convince him? and then when people say "no" we dont want this u jst remove their vote for your own good? thats just low.

[lucile]

nicely said symon.

if people start rallying together to make some one do something they should remember:
1. modding is a hobbie
2. because of that u can make ppl do what u want
3. why would he\she do something for you if u force them to?

he's not gonna be scared into submission, he cant be forced to do it, and even your "army" will probably just make him leave that modding scene rather than do what u want.
have u made any mods? if u have u should know that moddings about fun right? when u get bored of something u dont want to do it anymore. and what would u do if a bunch of "community members" gathered together to do something u didn't want to do for your own reasons. a nice please? please????? would be good. but obviously he hasn't replied. he's probably ignoring requests like HEAPS of other modders do. u honestly think starting a poll about it with a waaaaaay to long post that looks like something a politician wrote will convince him? and then when people say "no" we dont want this u jst remove their vote for your own good? thats just low.

Where do you people come off with these wack ball ideas? You keep creating accusations just because you don't like the idea.

I, nor anyone else, has said one single word about "forcing" Hrnchamd to make a change. This thread was merely to express reasons why it is needed, and to show how many people support it. Afterall, like I have said many times already, and am now repeating, it is ultimately his choice, his decision, and no one is forcing anyone to do any work.

It's just to help convince through support of an idea.

As for the executable having limited space, this is news to me. All his readme file ever states is "contact me with new ideas and changes you want to the patch" and never states anything about "make sure it's important and can fit into the executable". Ultimately, though, once again, it's his decision to make as to whether or not it is worth the space.

And if he is ignoring requests, well then he shouldn't be inviting them quite openly in his readme file, now should he?

Like we say in the South, if you don't want someone to eat at your house, don't invite them.

[Jordyn Youngman]

far! leave hrchamd alone! if he wants to do it after reading your email he can! but if u try gathering an army and raiding his house he wont do jack for you!

I'm starting to think that you are a lunatic that sees things that haven't been written in any way or form.

[naome duncan]

far! leave hrchamd alone! if he wants to do it after reading your email he can! but if u try gathering an army and raiding his house he wont do jack for you!

Don't mind him, BrodieSWR.
He's just here to flame. :flamethrower:

[He got the]

As for the executable having limited space, this is news to me.

Forgive me if I don't do the research, but if you search back through the MCP posts, you'll find one where he refers to the amount of space left to add to the executable.
Any change might require taking space from this small amount.

As for not forcing Hrchamd, all I can say is that no one else has put together a poll, especially one which they amended to exclude opinions they didn't like.

Note that Hrchamd may well not be ignoring you. If you read through his thread's you'd see that real life issues (college or work most likely) mandate largish break periods. Knowing how unpleasant dealing with assembler can be, I suspect at times he just wants a break.

Currently, I still merely disagree with you, despite gerrymandering. Please restore the option to dissent or PM a mod to change the thread title.

[Marcin Tomkow]

As for the executable having limited space, this is news to me. All his readme file ever states is "contact me with new ideas and changes you want to the patch" and never states anything about "make sure it's important and can fit into the executable". Ultimately, though, once again, it's his decision to make as to whether or not it is worth the space.

It's the nature of the Windows PE file format, particularly the fact that it allows the instruction 0x50 (or 0x5E, my machine code is rusty). That is the relative-call function, which requires offsets to remain stationary after the executable is built.

Now, there is a lot of space (300 or 400 kb, I think) unused within the executable file. Some functions could be shifted and that space used better; however, functions are 16-bit aligned inside the code segment, so without some changes or absolute calls (relatively expensive size-wise, starting at 5 bytes) it would be difficult to get all of that space in use.

Where do you people come off with these wack ball ideas? You keep creating accusations just because you don't like the idea.

Perhaps it's not the idea, rather the delivery? You've been fighting so hard for your opinion that it seems to have gone beyond a feature debate and some have taken offense, myself certainly included. Considering your recent move to forcibly suppress dissent, even after some of us tried to reason and offer alternatives, that's hardly surprising.

I would ask that you re-add the no option so our votes can at least be counted, but it really doesn't matter. It's pretty clear that the community does not support this, no matter what you may suggest.



I'd also like to, again, suggest that you go find a disassembler and implement this patch yourself, rather than continuing to attack those who'd rather not see it changed. You have the same executable Hrnchamd uses and the same tools are available and an internet full of tutorials on assembly, there's really nothing stopping you. I even offered, a few pages back, to pass on what little I know of the Morrowind executable's structure. Your time would be better served making this mod than telling us it needs made.

[koumba]

It's pretty clear that the community does not support this, no matter what you may suggest.

Actually, I'd say it's pretty clear the community is divided on the issue.

I suppose you can read "the community as a whole isn't sure what it wants, because shockingly individual people have individual opinions" as "the community does not support this", but I prefer to read this as "some members of the community want something done, some don't", i.e. "the community as a whole neither supports nor anti-supports this, but there is strong interest in it either way."

It might be fair to say, however, that everyone in the thread does think that implementation is entirely at the MCP maintainer's discretion, interest, and consideration of technical merit. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I think it's starting to get a little sad as each "side" of the debate says the same thing:

A: Stop pestering the maintainer! It's up to him!
B: I agree! It's up to him! I'd just like to bring the issue up.
A: It's totally up to him, what's wrong with you?
B: Why so defensive? I agree, didn't you hear me?
A: Didn't you hear me? It's up to him, stop pestering him!


repeat ad nauseum

(opinions expressed in this transcript are my own creation and may not reflect the opinions of any other forum posters)

[Natalie Harvey]

Actually, I'd say it's pretty clear the community is divided on the issue.

Yes and no. The community that's currently active is divided. I personally didn't start adding to any fourms of TES until a few weeks ago, and I'm sure there's many thousands of others, still playing morrowind but not on active or registered on the fourms at all.

I think the fight has deviated way too far from the topic at hand. I personally agree with the proposed idea. So what happens?

a ) It's accepted (Percentage), regardless what people think.
b ) The alternative is accepted (Buffer), regardless what people think.
c ) Have both options available to choose based on your preference.
d ) No changes are done at all.

Right now i can only hope that he accepts the task, and allows both so we can all be happy.

Now please, no more fighting, bickering, negative comments, or trying to force your logic. Simply vote, and comment if you think it's important. That's all i have to say.

[~Amy~]

I would ask that you re-add the no option so our votes can at least be counted, but it really doesn't matter. It's pretty clear that the community does not support this, no matter what you may suggest.

While I agree there is no reason to remove the "No" option, and I too (speaking as someone in favor of a change) feel it should be re-added, I would disagree with the statement that the community does not support this. As I recall, when it was up, the option for no change needed had less than a third of the votes. That means that over two thirds of those who cared enough to weigh in on the subject at all believe that the current fix for Fortify Health is insufficient.


Now, lets stop for a moment. Everyone here knows that Hrnchamd will have final say in what goes into the patch. Further, everyone on both sides has already admitted/accepted this. That point does not need to be belabored any further. It is a given. However, the fact is that it's impossible to weigh the options if you don't know what they are. If I go into a restaurant, I don't complain that I'm being badgered if I get a menu, and I already know that I don't have to eat there...but if I choose to, it is helpful to have an idea of what I could get. Further, when trying to fix something in which the terms of success are more subjective than "it works/doesn't", the only real test of a potential solution's validity is to gauge how it is received. A poll like this one can be of great use in a situation like this, since it gives a reasonable method of estimating what that reception is likely to be before the option (key word, option) is put in place.


Now, really, the bickering has to stop. We can have a civil discussion about this. State your support, or lack thereof for a position and be on your way. Or, if you must, discuss an issue you have with a proposed solution...and at least try to propose a solution or alternative. Discussing the relative merits of the topic itself existing however, is not productive by any standards. It exists, and does not break any rules in doing so, at least so far as I am aware. Let us leave it at that. All arguing over whether the topic should have been made will generate is hurt feelings and a textbook example of futility. This is not to say that people have not been offensive, however both sides have caused offense, and will only continue to do so should the argument continue.


It is my suggestion, and suggestion only, that the OP take a lesson from Dragnet and post "just the facts". That is to say, remove the opinions. Let us keep the information to the following things, perhaps?

• The OP is asking for Hrnchamd to implement a further change to Fortify Health.
  
• This thread is to demonstrate how many people would want such a feature.
  
• Other people have proposed an alternative change, but still feel a change is needed.
  
• Some feel the current method is fine.
  
• Any of these are potentially viable solutions, depending on individual tastes, and can coexist as separate options if there is enough space.
  
• The OP feels that players should have the options available if they want them.

[ILy- Forver]

(Politicians. And I was wondering why this thread is going in a bad direction.)

@Peachykeen,
This will be a tweak. So adding one might mean removing another tweak at most. I don't think the limited space is a problem here. Fixes have the high priority, always.

@BrodieSWR,
I have something to say to you.

Spoiler

When you said "this is a broken and useless concept" you didn't do anything wrong. This is your opinion. But when you put this in the OP as "for people who want to play their game with broken and useless concepts"... There are no people who want to play games with broken and useless concepts. Are there anyone? Nope. Can you see the difference here? Normally, it wouldn't concerned me, though you are a poster who seeks a common ground from community. This should prevent you from becoming opinionated, at least in OP. Others don't have this burden so you should stand strong. So I tried to point this but you didn't remove that part. So I thought maybe you missed that, until now. But now you effectively removed different votes. :facepalm: Funny thing is I really believe this wasn't your intention at all. I liked your courage. You have my sympathy. We learn as we go.

I hope you can understand me.

---

Morrowind can use some gameplay tweaking, why not? I don't use fortify health either. The one time I used, I thought it was hurting more than helping. It is because I can't really keep track of it in the heat of battle. I end up with a time bomb.

Although further thinking reveals, you can check the fortify health number and compare it to current health to understand the situation. If health is lower, you are gonna die. So the real problem is you can't have track of the time.

If we see it as an adrenalin shot, here look at this image from Left 4 Dead:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/332/b/7/left_4_dead_screenshot_by_kei_chan96.jpg

See you can keep track of it in this. I think it lowers as time passes. Oblivion also shows the remaining time.

So there can be a fade effect. The effect can wear off slowly(3 points per second) after duration or during duration. A visual clue as a separate mod can help too.

But the real problem with Fortify Health is, why should I use it when I have restore health?

I think Fortify Health needs something over Restore Health. And my personal opinion is, after some tinkering on the matter, there is nothing wrong with Fortify Health actually, it is Restore Health that needs tweaking/balancing. Restore Health affects instantly. This is the real problem here. IF restore health had a slow recovering rate, instant effect fortify health would triumph and become extremely useful. This would be a complicated tweak, I know. But I just need to point it.

The poll lost its credibility. So it would be better if it is closed altogether at this moment. We can discuss it maybe two or more full threads before opening a fresh free poll. Let's have an open discussion. I want to hear more opinions.

[censored] a nasty looking spider just jumped in front of my monitor. I had to turn on the lights. Now I lost it. :unsure:

[Fanny Rouyé]

Personally, I feel that there should never have been a "no" option.
Since this would be purely optional, and thus would not effect those who don't want to use this,
it was moot to begin with, and only gave readers false impressions of it's purpose.

In short, though yes, he shouldn't have removed it after putting it up... he also shouldn't have put it up in the first place.
Regardless, those of us who still wish to vote "no" can still do so... by not voting. (My, how zen...)

The student asked the teacher: Master, is it better to say yes, or no?
The master wisely replied: Mu.

And thus, the student was enlightened.