[LuBiE LoU]

I really don't understand this pressing need people seem to have to nerf exploits. If someone can't curb their urge to cheat they'll just type "tgm" into the console anyway, so WHY do you have to "fix" the infinitely harder and more tedious way of doing the exact same thing?

As for the poll, I like Elaura's method, though I personally don't think the player should have to heal to fill in that extra HP. It's time consuming and a waste of magicka.

[Sasha Brown]

I really don't understand this pressing need people seem to have to nerf exploits.

They do it because it's a video game.
One of the main benefits of playing a video game is that the computer automatically enforces the rules.
This allows the player to just relax and play the game, without having to consciously enforce the rules on themselves.
(Games need rules... and this way you don't have to think about that while you're busy playing.)

Sure, you could always cheat... but then then you would be making a conscious effort to break the rules.
Those who nerf the exploits do so to close loopholes in the game's rules.
That way, the only way to cheat... is to do so on purpose, outside of gameplay.

Besides, if you cheat, you aren't even playing the game, so to speak.
As in, you're not playing Morrowind, you're playing another sort of game... using Morrowind as a gameboard.
You're playing a game where the only rule is that there isn't any rules... "Cheatingwind" if you will.

Which can be quite an enjoyable game to play, don't get me wrong.
It just isn't Morrowind.

[Bethany Short]

I agree with what you are trying to do, and I would definitly download it. I hope it works out!

[Zoe Ratcliffe]

I think it boils down to modders having a certain "sacred vision" for their mods *that must not be deviated from* and they know that once the mod is released, it will be "used and abused". They try to circumvent this by setting "rules" and closing the loopholes. This is fine, but it's detrimental to modding in general if the modder spends (read: wastes) too much time playing search and destroy with unintended exploits. It is also pretty much a modders' fallacy that they have any control over how their mod will be used, anyway, as everyone who has the game has the construction set and the capability to change it all, whether they have the skills or not. How much time is "too much"? Only the individual modder can know for certain, but it can become clearer when working on a team project.

Anyway, as far as cheating goes, there are as many differing opinions on this as there are people who play video games. I am of the opinion that life has shortcuts and easter eggs that you can only find by trying different things and if someone else has found the way before me, it is awfully kind of them to share it. Video games, especially those which emulate life, such as RPGs, also have shortcuts and easter eggs, as they should, some intended and some not. As long as I am not competing against someone else and I am enjoying myself, whether in life or in a game, my shortcuts aren't hurting anyone.

A final note: I personally find it amusing that many of the same people who believe staunchly in everyone following the rules in a game, think nothing of cheating on tests, flipping off hall monitors behind their backs, and committing misdemeanors whenever they feel they can get away with it.

I think, since the OP mentioned exploits and changing the implementation of the fortify health spell, this post is not off-topic, however, I would urge anyone following to try not to lose sight of the fact we are still discussing that very thing: whether or not a new change to Fortify Health should be implemented in the MCP and how exactly it should be done. BTW, although folks are saying "Elaura's way", I didn't intend to introduce it in competition with Brodie's method, only as my personal preference.

[Steeeph]

A final note: I personally find it amusing that many of the same people who believe staunchly in everyone following the rules in a game, think nothing of cheating on tests, flipping off hall monitors behind their backs, and committing misdemeanors whenever they feel they can get away with it.

The two things are not the same, though.

Whether or not to cheat in a single-player video game is not a moral issue.
If you cheat in such a game, you harm no one.
You only effect your own experience of the game.
(Cheating in a multiplayer game however, is another matter entirely.)

You can't really compare it to any of those other things.
Those are in real life, with real consequences.
(Failing your classes, offending actual people, commiting literal crimes, etc.)

Those are real, moral decisions.

Edit: In those examples, the risks, should you be caught, are genuine...
and you may harm/offend someone in the process.

If you cheat in a single-player game, the only one who will ever know/care is you.
Should someone else find out... let's just say it won't exactly ruin your education.
(Or cause the police to come and bust down your door.)

Regardless of happens if you cheat, you'll still be stuck playing "Cheatingwind", though!

[Camden Unglesbee]

I'm slightly off-topic with this, but hear me out.
This topic has given me an idea for a mod.

Without (much) further ado, I give you... "Cheatingwind"!

Cheatingwind would be a sort of mini-TC for Morrowind.
In it, you would play as a hacker, hacking into the popular MMO "Elder Scrolls Online".
Most of the NPCs would be players, except for designated quest-givers, shopkeepers, etc.

You would login as a supposedly legit player, except you would use "hax" and "cheats" as abilities.
I call it a "mini-TC" as it would be built upon vanilla Morrowind, but with changed plot and gameplay.

It could even be expanded upon to include popular mods as though they were "official" expansion packs/DLC.
Well, what do you think?

Edit: For this, I would also want to base it partially on the gamesas Forum itself, as well as PES and other major MW sites.
It could be like a Morrowind equivalent of "The Nameless Mod".

For those who don't know about "TNM", look here: http://thenamelessmod.com/
or here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-nameless-mod

Further Edit: Alternatively, it could be played like a normal MMO, but with cheating as a "dark" action, like vampirism or necromancy.
Though I prefer the "hacker" approach.

[sally coker]

Hmm,

After some forethought, it could be possible to balance the "Elaura" method. You could simply have constant effect Fortify Health act as it does now, simply give a boost to Maximum HP and take it away when removed, and give temporary ones the proposed change of acting like a preemptive heal.

Done. No more exploit.

Genius, no?

:P

Edit:

I have updated my original post with this idea.

[Josephine Gowing]

Hmm, that could work...

[Victoria Bartel]

A final note: I personally find it amusing that many of the same people who believe staunchly in everyone following the rules in a game, think nothing of cheating on tests, flipping off hall monitors behind their backs, and committing misdemeanors whenever they feel they can get away with it.

Well that's simple. Cheating in a game ruins the fun, breaking the rules in other places just add to it.

Hmm,

After some forethought, it could be possible to balance the "Elaura" method. You could simply have constant effect Fortify Health act as it does now, simply give a boost to Maximum HP and take it away when removed, and give temporary ones the proposed change of acting like a preemptive heal.

Done. No more exploit.

Genius, no?

The only problem with that is you introduce two behaviors to the spell effect, which ends up complicating things a whole lot more. With a single behavior, it might be possible to tweak the existing code. With two, you have to have it branch and do all sorts of other stuff, depending on how the effect is applied. I'm not sure how that would work.

If you were going to go with multiple behaviors, having it grant additional max and current health when used as a spell, but just boost the max as an enchantment, would probably be pretty balanced.

[Olga Xx]

I find it interesting how the vote is about equal on all three sides. The No option has less support than the other two, but not overpoweringly so.

I don't agree totally with the three options provided, but I do feel the effect needs tweaking. I like the idea of the "1 HP failsafe." The idea that I could cast myself into negative health with a restoration spell is absurd, so I propose a compromise between the fatal vanilla effect and the failsafe idea:

If the spell ends and the amount of health fortified is greater than your remaining health, leave the caster with a single point of health and severe stat penalties. This way, you still suffer the penalties of biting off more than you could chew, but not fatally so.

Also, I laughed at "Replying to Dear Community."

[edit - typo]

[Bigze Stacks]

The worst thing, however, is this:

Elaura's version creates an unavoidable exploit:

Equiping and unequiping constant effect equipment that possesses a fortify health effect in combat will allow your character to constant re-apply a preemptive heal, basically making your character immortal.

I would like to point out that my suggested method (which, while conceptually similar, was actually suggested before Elaura's) did address that issue. I proposed, and still believe it would be best, if fortified HP did not in any way touch your current HP. That is to say:

If you have 75/100 HP, and cast 50 points of Fortify Health, then up to the first 50 points of damage is taken from a "FortifiedHP" variable. In essence, you would have two HPs. One that is 75/100 (normal HP) and one that is 50/50 (fortified). When the spell wears off, unless you took more than that 50 points in damage, your remaining HP would still be 75/100.

[OTTO]

I would like to point out that my suggested method (which, while conceptually similar, was actually suggested before Elaura's) did address that issue. I proposed, and still believe it would be best, if fortified HP did not in any way touch your current HP. That is to say:

If you have 75/100 HP, and cast 50 points of Fortify Health, then up to the first 50 points of damage is taken from a "FortifiedHP" variable. In essence, you would have two HPs. One that is 75/100 (normal HP) and one that is 50/50 (fortified). When the spell wears off, unless you took more than that 50 points in damage, your remaining HP would still be 75/100.

I think now that your way being implemented for constant effect items, and Elaura's way for temporary effects would be the best solution, possibly.

The main problem, though, is that this is all just conjecture until Hrnchamd either responds to my e-mail, or stops being MIA.

[Amy Melissa]

there's a whole lot of [censored]ing going on in this thread.

and what are u after anyway? getting a group together to make hrnchamd make this? or jst moaning about how other people have done it?

[Queen Bitch]

there's a whole lot of [censored]ing going on in this thread.

and what are u after anyway? getting a group together to make hrnchamd make this? or jst moaning about how other people have done it?

Please don't bring negativity into this thread.

And yes, the purpose of this thread is to bring people together to gather support to convince Hrnchamd to implement this as an option for those who want it since he basically the only one who can because of the limitations imposed by Morrowind's scripting language.

Emphasis on option. I'm not forcing anyone to use this.

My previous post was to point out that Hrnchamd hasn't been seen anywhere for about 2 months, and hasn't responded to any e-mail that I know of.

[His Bella]

Please don't bring negativity into this thread.

And yes, the purpose of this thread is to bring people together to gather support to convince Hrnchamd to implement this as an option for those who want it since he basically the only one who can because of the limitations imposed by Morrowind's scripting language.

Emphasis on option. I'm not forcing anyone to use this.

My previous post was to point out that Hrnchamd hasn't been seen anywhere for about 2 months, and hasn't responded to any e-mail that I know of.

lolol.

either that or he's ignoring? which i would probably do when someone makes awhole thread about "gathering people to convince" me to do something.

[Unstoppable Judge]

Well it had to be this way... he had to gather people to vote into the petition somehow.
I like to think of it as a grassroots movement.

"Power to the Proletariat!", so to speak.
(Well regardless, there's always "The People's Hammer", hmm?)

[Mrs shelly Sugarplum]

I think now that your way being implemented for constant effect items, and Elaura's way for temporary effects would be the best solution, possibly.

The main problem, though, is that this is all just conjecture until Hrnchamd either responds to my e-mail, or stops being MIA.

Weird because, Hrnchamd answered to my demand of translation of MCP, there is a few days.

[Toby Green]

Regardless of what Brodie intended, I think this thread has turned out some valid POV's about the Fortify Health spell. If Hrnchamd, or anyone else was interested in changing the nature of Fortify Health, I would think that those perspectives would be a decent gauge of how any such effort would be received. I don't really think it wise to assume Hrnchamd would look at a discussion as some sort of petition, or demand, and labeling valid discussion as whatever it was that was censored is just as presumptive. A difference of opinion is not always an attack, a debate is not always an argument, and a request is not always a demand.

Anyway, it would be nice to see an update of MCP, whether it includes added flexibility in modding Fortify Health or anything else that would make modding a bit easier. I would hope if Hrnchamd is following this thread at all, he would at least see how much we all appreciate his efforts thus far, as well as how much we all anticipate his return. I, for one, wouldn't still be playing Morrowind if it weren't for such invaluable add-ons as MCP.

[Sami Blackburn]

I suspect Hrnchamd is taking a well-deserved break.

Frankly, this thread is a storm in a teacup. The poster has made the suggestion, others have supported it or decried it. Hrnchamd will implement it if it's possible and he sees fit. End of issue.

Honestly, there are more useful fixes that have been suggested, such as one just now for Ressurect. I'd like to see the whole issue of companions addressed before this minor tweak, which some attest is merely making a spell easier to use. A less time intensive answer is 'don't like the spell? Don't use it'.

[MARLON JOHNSON]

One of the main benefits of playing a video game is that the computer automatically enforces the rules.
This allows the player to just relax and play the game, without having to consciously enforce the rules on themselves.
(Games need rules... and this way you don't have to think about that while you're busy playing.)

Who would constantly reequip CE effect items by accident? I mean really. A lot of the game's exploits, vanilla or not, I would have never even known about had someone not told me.

This really could be a thread in and of itself, couldn't it?

[Juanita Hernandez]

Some people have discipline and just won't do things that will spoil their enjoyment.
Some people seem to need a competition with rock-solid rules, even when they are only playing against themselves.
I've never understood why some people need 'teacher' to make them not do something silly.
Must be getting too old I guess.

[Brian Newman]

When you're playing a single-player game, you still play against another player... the computer.
It throws challenges at you, and you overcome them, or you lose.
The computer imposes rules, and it's up to you to win without breaking them.

You could cheat, but then you would be breaking the rules.
If you were playing against a human player, they would be offended, call you out on your cheating.

Normally, the computer can enforce it's rules on you, but sometimes things can happen that aren't accounted for.
These glitches, bugs, and oversights by the developers can sometimes by exploited by players.
If you take advantage of an "exploit", the computer can't account for this, and thus can't catch you cheating.

Against humans, you would be disqualified for cheating, but the computer will let you keep playing.
If you didn't cheat, you would have accomplished something you could be proud of yourself for, even if only a little.
However, since you've cheated, if you still go on to win, it wouldn't mean anything... your victory would be hollow, at best.

If you keep cheating, you will always win, again and again, and again, and again...
Since the game could no longer challenge you, there wouldn't be a point to playing, and you would inevitably grow bored and stop.
You would then put the game back in it's box, stick it in your closet, and never look back.

You would buy a new game, and you would play it, and have fun... until you found a way to cheat.
You would begin to cheat more and more, until this game began to bore you... and then you would toss it aside...
It's a vicious cycle, one I've seen before in other gamers, and that I take care to avoid myself.

I love Morrowind, it's my favorite game of all. (Hence why I'm willing to spend so much time and effort modding for it.)

As such, I avoid using exploits... I don't want to ruin the fun.
On the other hand, I want to be able to just relax, and play the game, without having to worry about such things, you know?
Thus, I would prefer that the game handle as much of the rules enforcement as possible.
I'm here to play a game, after all... not waste time worrying about my "self-discipline".

[Richard]

The Elaura method sounds good. In fact, that is the way it is implemented in various Infinity engine AD&D games (Baldur's gate series, Icewind Dale series, and so on). In those games, when the spell is cast, the temporary hit points are effectively a "shield", which means that if you have for example 50 HP in temporary hit points, those are used first when you are damaged, and if all are spent, the spell immediately wears off. After that, you get hit for real. If there are temporary hit points left when the spell ends, they are removed, and nothing is removed from your real health. It works well in those games.

Although that is how it works in AD&D, it only gives you some additional temporary hit points (not too much), and the exact amount is randomly chosen. The spell could get overpowering and unbalance the game, if you can get enormous amount of hit points by casting that simple spell. I don't remember can you stack those spells in those games.

[roxxii lenaghan]

@GA:

So, by using the word "you", you are implying that "I" cannot enjoy a game that I bought, on a computer that I bought, playing by "my" own rules? I think you should probably reconsider what you said may not apply to everyone who has ever played a computer/video game. Perhaps you should think about people who buy their own computers to play single player games in their own homes, AND mod them to their own specifications, not because it isn't fun, but because games are not one size fits all. Game developers are not gods, they cannot make rules that suit everyone and playing by their rules is not even fun for everyone. Personally, I don't think my ten year old nephew and I should have to play by the same rules, even when we are playing against each other; first, because our skill sets are completely different, and second, because what we each think is fun is different.

One question, do you cheat when you play solitaire, I mean with a deck of cards, not on a computer? The cards can't enforce the rules, yet generations upon generations of people have played solitaire, by Hoyle's rules or some set of their own design. True, it can get boring and when someone has something better to do, they can either change games or put the cards back into the box and go, but it isn't up to you to determine whether that person had fun or not.

The only part of your post that is relevant is this:

As such, I avoid using exploits... I don't want to ruin the fun.
On the other hand, I want to be able to just relax, and play the game, without having to worry about such things, you know?
Thus, I would prefer that the game handle as much of the rules enforcement as possible.
I'm here to play a game, after all... not waste time worrying about my "self-discipline".

Play it the way you want, but I would strongly caution you against assuming other people feel the same way.

Now, in a further attempt to get back to the subject at hand, pretending no one has the desire to control the way other people use the Fortify Health spell, can anyone think of a way to modify it so that modders and players will have the *option* to change it in more than one way, rather than have to choose one way or another . . . or not use the patch at all?

EDIT for clarification as to whom I was speaking.

[stevie critchley]

Sorry for the rant and over-assumption.
It's just that I happen to to be really passionate in my feelings about the subject.

However, that's what I feel modding is partially for... rules customisation.
After I have customised it though, I should then still have to adhere to the rules.
(Just because I made them, doesn't mean I get to break them...)

I'm here to play Morrowind, not "Super Self Police-io Bros.", though.
(...and certainly not "Cheatingwind", for that matter.)

Regardless, you have a point... I shouldn't make outright assumptions on other's point-of-view, sorry.
(I didn't intent to, anyway... That's just sort of how it came out.)

With regards to the fix itself, I still think it needs fixing, but I'd pretty much be fine with either fix, really.
It's not so much a matter of having options to me, though.
I just think the old Fortify Health method was a raw deal to the players, and that it needs more polishing, is all.

I'm sorry if I've offended you, Elaura. Please forgive me.
I didn't intend to be rude.