[Marguerite Dabrin]

I have edited my post and the poll because, after some thought in retrospect, it is obvious that the option to vote "No" is unnecessary, as this change will not affect anyone, in anyway, negatively, and will only add a new option to be chosen. It will not remove the old option already available. This is merely a petetion to see who actually wants the option available, and which one, because if you do not want it, it is not relevant because it does not affect you.

For clarity, I will now elaborate on the 4 possible ways to implement Fortify Health:

1) Vanilla Morrowind: This is the old method of fortifying your current health, and only your current health. After the duration wears off, you lose the fortified health. This was very dangerous, and most people agree that it was rather pointless because it was an inescapable death trap that not even healing could save you from.

2) Morrowind Code Patch "Fortify Maximum Health": This is the current method. This functions as a health buffer that allows you go into battle with more total health, allowing you to take more punishment for a duration. The benefit is increasing your total amount of damage that can be taken in a set amount of time without healing, and increasing the effectiveness of healing in larger amounts. The downsides to this method are that in its current form, it isn't very useful when compared with other spells currently in the game. The cost ratio of Fortify Health when compared with spell such as Restore Health and Shield or Resist Magic are much more cost effective, having better performance ratios. In order to increase the usefulness of this form of the spell, you need to implement changes to all of Morrowind, increasing the durations of all of the items in the game, and decreasing the costs of creating custom spells and items, and making potions of this effect last longer. So in conclusion, in my opinion, I believe that this way is not practical to implement in anyway, and the current state of affairs is not useful enough to warrant casting the spell.

3) Temporary HP: This method would treat Fortify Health as a preemptive heal. That is, the hitpoints that it adds would be removed first when damage is taken, and then, when the effect wore off, any remaining temporary health, if it remained, would be removed. The downside to this method, however, is that it creates an exploit with constant effect items containing the effect, allowing a person to constantly heal themselves by reequiping the item constantly.

Edit:

After some forethought, it could be possible to balance the "Elaura" method. You could simply have constant effect Fortify Health act as it does now, simply give a boost to Maximum HP and take it away when removed, and give temporary ones the proposed change of acting like a preemptive heal.

4) Percentage Based Fortify Health: This is the method that I recommended to Hrnchamd because of practicality in implementation. This method contains no exploits, and allows for the Fortify Health effect to useful for tanking, and it scales down as health increases, causing it to be more useful for weakling mages in the beginning.

Please consider these options before voting, and if you have anything say, please post and let everyone know your thoughts.

[Hilm Music]

So much red >.<

B)

But yeah, with the way you were going, I figured that there wasn't much left to do but pull Hrnch in. Believe me, I feel your pain.

I'll keep an eye on this thread and update my mod list as necessary... I'm still hosting 2.2 on my site at the moment.

[Jordyn Youngman]

I think that I would have to agree with you Brodie, I find the fortify health spell to be completely useless. I have thought about what you're trying to do several times in the past and would like to have attempted it if only I knew the scripting aspect of Morrowind (and I'm still having troubles with Blender and the Python scripts).

I believe that this would be a welcome change that everyone would appreciate. There are many of us who play mages that would find a fortify health spell like you have outlined to be very useful, especially if you were to be a battlemage. I would fully support this and would even be very willing to test this exstensively.

[priscillaaa]

Thanks for the support Darzax.

To BTB:

Yes, I had no choice. Too many nights of frustrating, and writing script code until my eyes bleed. I have no more ideas... .

The only way, and I mean ONLY way, that I could implement what I want with script is if I had a list of ALL fortify health effects in the game, including spells and potions, and put individual compensation for each spell and effect ID. And this is just not realistic.

And version 2.2 is just fine as it is, so keep hosting it. It just makes simple retroactive changes with no attempts at making anything percantage based.

Edit:

You know, sometimes I hate being OCD. I have Morrowind more or less configured the way I want it with your mod list and all, but I can't make myself play it because this one problem of mine isn't fixed yet. Oh well, I guess for now I'll just continue to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat.

Hrnchamd, return soon!!!!!!!

[Rob Smith]

I'm pretty sure the Code Patch already changes the Fortify Health effect so that damage affects the fortified amount before the base amount. I.e. if you fortify your health from 100 to 150 and take 30 points of damage, your health goes down to 120, but when the spell wears off you still have the original 100 points. If you take 60 points of damage you'll lose the 50 extra health points plus 10 base health points, leaving you with health of 90 (which won't change when the spell wears off).

[Kevin S]

I'm pretty sure the Code Patch already changes the Fortify Health effect so that damage affects the fortified amount before the base amount. I.e. if you fortify your health from 100 to 150 and take 30 points of damage, your health goes down to 120, but when the spell wears off you still have the original 100 points. If you take 60 points of damage you'll lose the 50 extra health points plus 10 base health points, leaving you with health of 90 (which won't change when the spell wears off).

Actually Helena, I have been testing and working with this for many weeks, and maybe that was Hrnchamd's original idea, but that is not how it works at all. All he did was make it fortify maximum health. This means that it is still just as useless as ever. He needs to implement this change.

If you don't believe me, go test it in game.

Edit:

The original effect in Vanilla Morrowind adds health directly to your current HP. An example:

150/100 HP.

This was REALLY dangerous before because if you fortified more than your natural health, you had no way to heal damage that you took beyond your natural health, leaving you with a literal death sentence.

The new effect, which version 1.8 of the Morrowind Code Patch implements, does the following:

150/150 HP.

But... you still lose the full current and maximum health values when the duration is finished, leaving you with a less dangerous spell because you can at least heal the damage, but still virtually useless because the full amount is still removed in the end.

[WYatt REed]

The only way, and I mean ONLY way, that I could implement what I want with script is if I had a list of ALL fortify health effects in the game, including spells and potions, and put individual compensation for each spell and effect ID. And this is just not realistic.

Yeah, I know from experience that ocne you reach that point of trying to implement a new idea, it's time for a different approach.

You know, sometimes I hate being OCD. I have Morrowind more or less configured the way I want it with your mod list and all, but I can't make myself play it because this one problem of mine isn't fixed yet. Oh well, I guess for now I'll just continue to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat.

Oh, I feel you. I'm the same way, in that I have Honest-To-Odin OCD (and it bugs the hell out of me when people OCD to refer to what are just little personality quirks - there's a HUGE difference). Hell, I've owned Morrowind for over five years and have never played more than a few hours into it.

I'm pretty sure the Code Patch already changes the Fortify Health effect so that damage affects the fortified amount before the base amount. I.e. if you fortify your health from 100 to 150 and take 30 points of damage, your health goes down to 120, but when the spell wears off you still have the original 100 points. If you take 60 points of damage you'll lose the 50 extra health points plus 10 base health points, leaving you with health of 90 (which won't change when the spell wears off).

That would be ideal, but no. What the MCP does is cause fortify health to also fortify your current health so that using fortify health effects at least have the illusion of being useful (well, that and so you won't die when the effect wears off and you lose the extra health).

[Rach B]

Oh, I feel you. I'm the same way, in that I have Honest-To-Odin OCD (and it bugs the hell out of me when people OCD to refer to what are just little personality quirks - there's a HUGE difference). Hell, I've owned Morrowind for over five years and have never played more than a few hours into it.

We are more alike than you know. I am literally diagnosed with moderate OCD. I can't eat anything that isn't in even numbers, and I am a germ-a-phobe, and I too never get more than about 10 hours into Morrowind before having gripes with the system. I also am a grammar nazi. I teach English in Brazil, so imagine what my classes must be like.

By the way, I ninja'd your post.

[Czar Kahchi]

Alright, going against popular opinion, I voted no. I'd like to explain why. See, the way Fortify Health works isn't even close to what (as I understand it) the spell is supposed to do. I always understood the effect to be something like temporary hitpoints in D&D. That is to say, no matter what my HP is, the Fortified (temporary) hitpoints would be removed first, and only the remaining temporary points are removed at the end. So the fix that I would want is for Fortified HP to be calculated as a separate value from character HP, so that MaxHP = MaxHP but CurrentHP = NormalHP + TempHP>0. If that's a little confusing, think of it this way, your max HP stays the same and every time you lose HP the magnitude of the effect is reduced by the damage taken, until it hits zero. I realize it's a drastic change, and possibly hard to implement, but so will be anything that gets this effect to not kill the player. So I just figure it ought to go similar to the effect Bethesda seemed to be trying to imitate.


Not saying there's anything wrong with your solution. Not at all. Really anything that changes Fortify Health to not be a "Delay Death" spell is better than what we have now. However, you did ask if we support your solution, and since I have my own way I want it done, and there's no "Anything that makes it work" option...well, you get the point. Good luck anyway! :twirl:

[Samantha Jane Adams]

I say yes to this. You have a mod that actually reminds me of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Reflect_Damage spell effect there is in Oblivion. bliviongate:
It's just similar to reflect damage in a way, but not have that magical effect when you have cast it.

[GPMG]

I really don't see the problem. I increase my HP from 100 to 150. I take 120 damage and I'm not dead. That is hardly useless. I heal myself back up and then don't die when the spell wears off.

Edit: To elaborate. You need to be careful when Water Breathing ends. You need to be careful when flying spells end. What's the issue with being careful when this spell ends? To me it's the same as complaining that when water breathing wears off, you can drown!

[Horse gal smithe]

I voted yes.
I think this is an excellent idea.

Kefke the Wren's alternative is good too, though.
(I just think BrodieSWR's approach would be more straitforward.)

Regardless, something should be done about this...

[Mark]

I really don't see the problem. I increase my HP from 100 to 150. I take 120 damage and I'm not dead. That is hardly useless. I heal myself back up and then don't die when the spell wears off.

Well, the real problem comes when you take a big enough hit right before the effect wears off. Or if you find yourself in a situation without a valid healing option. Right now, Fortify Health sort of works like, "I have massive wounds that ought to kill me, but my magic is sustaining me for now" which is conceptually workable, but not ideal from a player standpoint. As it stands, it basically means that Fortify Health effects require massive durations to be truly useful, so as not to wear off before you can get healing.

[Shelby McDonald]

I really don't see the problem. I increase my HP from 100 to 150. I take 120 damage and I'm not dead. That is hardly useless. I heal myself back up and then don't die when the spell wears off.

Edit: To elaborate. You need to be careful when Water Breathing ends. You need to be careful when flying spells end. What's the issue with being careful when this spell ends? To me it's the same as complaining that when water breathing wears off, you can drown!

Symon69, you aren't seeing the issue here.

It is not a matter of "spell management". The spell is literally useless. When that extra 50 HP wears off, if you have taken 120 damage, you will have a nice -20 HP, and drop dead. This means that mathematically, the spell did nothing. It added 50, then took it away, leaving you with a net effect of 0.

So in the end, the spell didn't help you survive anything, because even though you survived that 120 damage, when the duration ends, you will still drop dead with -20 HP.

The spell serves no purpose as it is in it's current state. The only POSSIBLE use that it can have is allowing you survive one shot kills from super power attacks, and even then, this will only happen if you manage to heal yourself a sufficient amount before the duration wears off. This makes the spell even more of a hassle because now you can't safely use it without coupling it with a suitable restore health effect.

I hope I can make you understand. This effect is nigh useless, and quite desperately requires this change.

[Matthew Warren]

Well, the real problem comes when you take a big enough hit right before the effect wears off. Or if you find yourself in a situation without a valid healing option. Right now, Fortify Health sort of works like, "I have massive wounds that ought to kill me, but my magic is sustaining me for now" which is conceptually workable, but not ideal from a player standpoint. As it stands, it basically means that Fortify Health effects require massive durations to be truly useful, so as not to wear off before you can get healing.

Exactly what he said. Said with eloquence.

[Natalie J Webster]

urm I like the idea BUT I think MCP should only do it as an OPTIONAL feature, not a necessary one.

[Taylah Haines]

urm I like the idea BUT I think MCP should only do it as an OPTIONAL feature, not a necessary one.

Well, this is obvious, and I thought it was implied... I'll edit my original post.

If you agree with the concept, please vote "Yes".

[Meghan Terry]

I certainly welcome additional options, but my personal taste favors Fortify Health the way it currently is with the MCP. I am always cautious with it in any case, due to chilling memories of the pre-MCP days, but I think the danger is part of the fun. Good luck, though!

[Stace]

Symon: when water breathing and flying wear off, the effect is *not* instadeath. You have time before you drown and you have time to cast slowfall before you hit the ground. In fact there is even a chance you aren't high enough to kill yourself when you fall. The comparison is flawed.


If I were going to fix fortify health, I would simply make it so that your health is only lowered if you are still above your pre-spell maxhealth when fortify health wears off. For example:

pre-spell: HP =100/100
while spell is active: HP = 150/150

player takes 20 damage -> 130/150
spell wears off -> 100/100

player takes 55 damage -> 95/150
spell wears off -> 95/100

I don't feel like the resulting loss of HP should be changed/lessened from the actual damage taken.

Brodie's solution is better than what we have, but I would prefer it worked the way I described, so I'm not going to vote.

[Antony Holdsworth]

Symon: when water breathing and flying wear off, the effect is *not* instadeath. You have time before you drown and you have time to cast slowfall before you hit the ground. In fact there is even a chance you aren't high enough to kill yourself when you fall. The comparison is flawed.


If I were going to fix fortify health, I would simply make it so that your health is only lowered if you are still above your pre-spell maxhealth when fortify health wears off. For example:

pre-spell: HP =100/100
while spell is active: HP = 150/150

player takes 20 damage -> 130/150
spell wears off -> 100/100

player takes 55 damage -> 95/150
spell wears off -> 95/100

I don't feel like the resulting loss of HP should be changed/lessened from the actual damage taken.

Brodie's solution is better than what we have, but I would prefer it worked the way I described, so I'm not going to vote.

Elaura, I have added a third option for those who do not like my solution.

[djimi]

Elaura, I have added a third option for those who do not like my solution.

Elaura stated much more elegantly what I was trying to say. Though I was uncertain about Fortify Health raising Max Health too, I can certainly see the sense in it too. In any case, since the third option is there now, I'm reassigning my vote accordingly.

[Marnesia Steele]

Symon: when water breathing and flying wear off, the effect is *not* instadeath. You have time before you drown and you have time to cast slowfall before you hit the ground. In fact there is even a chance you aren't high enough to kill yourself when you fall. The comparison is flawed.


If I were going to fix fortify health, I would simply make it so that your health is only lowered if you are still above your pre-spell maxhealth when fortify health wears off. For example:

pre-spell: HP =100/100
while spell is active: HP = 150/150

player takes 20 damage -> 130/150
spell wears off -> 100/100

player takes 55 damage -> 95/150
spell wears off -> 95/100

I don't feel like the resulting loss of HP should be changed/lessened from the actual damage taken.

Brodie's solution is better than what we have, but I would prefer it worked the way I described, so I'm not going to vote.

If it is temporary, it should be temporary. I agree with Elaura. Things like -30/100 are paradoxical. Those should be avoided.

[Emma Louise Adams]

In retrospect, I have changed my vote in favor of Elaura's version.

While BrodieSWR's original version would prevent an unfair instant death,
this version would, in hindsight, be more true to Morrowind's original design.
(Without being hideously broken like the original design, mind you.)

[Karl harris]

If I were going to fix fortify health, I would simply make it so that your health is only lowered if you are still above your pre-spell maxhealth when fortify health wears off. For example:

pre-spell: HP =100/100
while spell is active: HP = 150/150

player takes 20 damage -> 130/150
spell wears off -> 100/100

player takes 55 damage -> 95/150
spell wears off -> 95/100

This is definitely how it ought to work (and I thought it did work this way with the MCP, until BTB set me right). But I have no idea how easy it would be to implement.

[ShOrty]

In retrospect, I have changed my vote in favor of Elaura's version.

While BrodieSWR's original version would prevent an unfair instant death,
this version would, in hindsight, be more true to Morrowind's original design.
(Without being hideously broken like the original design, mind you.)

I've also *re-voted* my self and I think Elaura has understood what's the real problem of how fortify health spell works now.