Warning: Here is a mind driven astray. Expect intraqersonal communication and distrust in what commonly considered selfevident. Proceed at your own risk.

Dear those-who-knows-the-stuff-about-TES-lore

Before I start ranting, be aware that I am so unsure on my subject that I only assume what I say. You'll hopefully help me a little closer to knowledge. I'm calling out to all you who have a clear - no not neccesarily clear, but clearer overview than most, regarding the crazy lore of Elder Scrolls. The Crazy Lore. Not the regular facade of "Common Fantasy" that most of the games hide under.

Now, I know (or I think I know) that I have been presented with elves, trolls and dragons alike in my past gamethroughs. But, now I think have sensed what monster lies beneath. Beneath all the regular and safe picture which everyone can perceive, lies a terrifying obscurity that has a seems to be as slippery for my mind as the floor of my bathroom is for my feet every saturday. Reminding me sort of quantum physics. What I mean is that it's weird shiz. I noticed this first after I had played Oblivion, as I was too young to realise that "people" (if that is even the proper term) like Vivec/Vehk was not just a daft elf. After that I've marveled in the crazy of this lore.

And that's why I cry for you. I frequently search for your comments in the subjects to strengthen my grasp on these subjects, but it seems like searching for needles in a haystack, even when I stalk your profiles. I'm talking of you peepz who know about and can explain the context of the terms like "Kalpa" and "Nu-Mantia" and can tell about Anu and Padomay and the functions of Aurbis without quoting Dr. Who's "Timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff"

Now I have played from Morrowind and up, read the books I have found, svcked Elder Scrolls Wikia, UESP and Imperial Library dry. Among my those of my pals who also share an interest in TES, I'm considered "the dude who knows the lore"... But still there is so many things I don't understand. Compared to you guys, I am just a rookie, and now I figured it would be best if I simply wrote on the forums for help, possibly helping those who is in the same boat as me.

Now I understand that all souls are remnants of the (if not simply directly) Et'Ada. From as I have understood, these Et'Ada vary in size, as rocks on a beach. Some are legendary rocks of worship, while most are simply sand. Some of these Et'Ada build Mundus (or was it just Nirn?) out of themselves, which I think is what we call Ehlnofey (this is were you have to correct me in detail) What is the Hist in this context?

Also, as I understood it, Ehlnofey vary from being the animals and humanoids to being the laws of "nature". And I believe they also died? Atleast this all resulted in their mortality, nomatter how big they where. So even the worshipped Aedra, are considered mortal in that case. But what is mortality? As I remember, everyone returns to Aetherius when they die, either forever as with Sovngarde, or briefly as with the Dreamsleeve. So mortality drives you back to the realm that Magnus and the Magna Ge fled to in order to escape mortality? Or is there special rules for bigger Aedra?

Also, to switch to a part that I find just as cagey: Kalpa? What are they? I know that they are measure of time, if they aren't each a time entirety by themselves. But Alduin was supposed to eat them! When did our current kalpa start? At the beginning? But what was before? Is there even something before "The beginning" or is it like there's nothing south of the south pole? Did creation happen at the beginning? Wasn't it something with twelve worlds before the beginning? Whatever alduin eats, I know Shor and Dagon has made sure that a little leftover is hidden. Maybe because Alduin is, or used to be, or never was but still related to Akatosh, Alduin is time consuming almost everything. Maybe last Kalpa is whatever we only remember very little if any about, simply because of the passing of time. Maybe it is something I don't know about, but you people know about. I can't use these maybes for much if there is an actual answer out there, even if it is a multi-faced one as TES lore tend to have.

Also, what are the definite borders of Nirn? And Mundus? And Oblivion? And Aetherius? And Aurbis? Do they even have any? What of the functions? Are there some "effects" that cease working once you get further out? Here I think of the "We believe it, thus it is true" effect. As I understand it, mythos binds most of what I could collectively call "the world", in the way that it can only be a lie if people don't believe in it. But then how come that so few know of this? And how does their differences in faith affect the heavens? I mean, is there a Mundus where plane(t) named Phynaster wobbles about, and being devoid of a Julianos, while a secondary Mundus has the opposite happening? Also what level of Aedra do you have to be, in order to be in the sky above Nirn rather on Nirn? Are these Aedra confined to the sky, or do they just prefer to stick with blessings? I know Lorkhan strolls around here, after all it seems like I am him, to a certain extend. Atleast in Skyrim. But he also tore out his heart for it, all the while Trinimac did the job the same time it seems. Where is the border between history and Dawn Era? Is everything from the Dawn Era subject to what we collectively choose to remember it by? Is it affected by syncretic religions such as the imperial Eight and possibly One?

Also, what is Nirn? It is in Mundus and seems thus to be part of the smart system Lorkhan, Magnus and the Aedra worked out. But if the celestial bodies are up there... then what is down here? The Mythic Dawn Commentary says it was Mehrunes Dagon's realm. But he has his Deadlands! Can a daedra have more realms? I know realms exist without daedras... How does that even work? I thought the moment you had a plane(t), you would automaticly have a powerful Et'Ada aswell. Or is Oblivion different? Have I misunderstood everything here? I guess it's the difference between immortal daedra and mortal aedra. Wait how does that even make sense? Yes I know "sense" is not in abundance when waddling around here, but I could find no better word.

Can something that once was cease to not have been if everyone forgets about it? Does elves and humans have a common ancestor in the giants? Are giants then sharing roles of importance with dragons and hist? Are any of those even comparably? Can if Tsun is the same as Zenithar, is he bother dead and alive? Does he have a dead and an alive aspect, facing either culture appropriately? When I read Shor, Son of Shor as a
palpable person, in which I can understand due to his presumably fondness of a mortal existance, then how come his fellow aedra appear the same way? Can I thus, for sake of convenience actually put the other aedra into a picture like that? As stories told about ancient chiefs have a dispute? Or do I need the elven side to explain the elven pantheon? Would that not be like having Winnie the Pooh within the same room as Spock from Star Trek? Two caracters greatly valued but in two different cultures. Or is there something I'm missing? There was something about mirror images of the same, that has then later changed by belief...

I have probably forgot to mention more than half of all the stuff that makes me dizzy, and I might have written too much or too chaoticly for people to get a hold of the whole. In that case, I beg you people who understand more than I do about this, to atleast write some paragraphs in layman's terms about:

Kalpa
Aedra
Aurbis effect on Belief

And preferably also make a system for creation. Doesn't have to be linear, you could make it tree-shaped if that helps. Or tresses popping up here and there. Maybe a chain of rings, perhaps forming into a mail-sheet. Eitherway, whatever you can do to mend a poor mind that delved too deep into this bungus fluff.

Thank you in advance, and I apologise if any of this for some reason appeared inapropriate to any who might read it. That includes moderators.

Oh durn, just realised I posted this the wrong place! How do I remove this?

that im not sure... ask a moderator to move it? may be easier idk.

Ehlnofey aren't animals. Animals were created by Kynareth, while Ehlnofey predate Mundus.

Thank you, but that creates more questions for me than answers. How can one simply create (I do by no means doubt that she did it, though) animals? Unlike in real life, they aren't just animated star dust, but actual vessels for something to put into a Soul Gem.

First off, never use ES wikia for anything. Ever. Even if a robber/rapist has your family at gunpoint.
UESP is great for gameplay and passable for lore. TIL is the absolute best for lore though.

Now to start answering your questions.
All we know about the Hist is that it's "not Elhnofey". The et'Ada who would become Aedra built the Mundus. Just the 8 Divines are the really big ones.
Dreamsleeve isn't in Aetherius. Sovngarde might be there though. Aedra are dead, but they are not dead as we understand it. Ehlnofey are men, mer, and giants, not animals. Ehlnofey are the direct descendants of the Aedra as well.
Kalpa is the current world in the current timestream. The last kalpa is the kalpa before this one. That is to say, the entire world before this one. We don't remember last kalpa because we weren't there. Alduin is Akatosh, until Akatosh existed and was his father. Confusing I know.
Belief shapes the gods, but I'd assume the Aedric planets are just the remains of 8 big Aedra. PC in Skyrim is a Shezzarine, so yes you are Lorkhan. The moons are Lorkhan's corpse. Mundus, Oblivion, Aetherius and planets are bubbles of infinite size and mass...it's just that some are bigger than others...somehow.
Nirn is the center planet within the Mundus. The other planets are the remains of the other Aedra. Stars are holes in Oblivion leading to Aetherius. Mythic Dawn Commentaries (or rather Camoran himself) calls Mundus the Oblivion Realm of Lorkhan. A Daedra can have more than one realm. Daedric Planes are part of a Daedra's own body...but there are separate realms that can be put in control by another Prince.
Maybe? I'm a little stumped on the first question myself. Giants, men and mer are all descended from the Elhnofey. Dragons are time itself and have always existed. Hist are just "there". They've always existed on Tamriel when life was on it. Tsun is Zenithar, but not at the same time. Like Alduin/Akatosh, they are different aspects of the same face.
Nope, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Like how Alduin is "the Nordic version of Akatosh" despite them only having being dragon gods of time in common. The elves have very different views from men, so their gods may be hard to understand a little more.

These things might help:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/annotated-anuad
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower

You guys are great. Thanks ALKENO, that's the stuff I was hoping to receive. Hopefully more of the easy info will roll in perhaps. I could use some more angles on most of the subjects. And thank you Merari, although I had already read The Monomyth and The Tower, I am eager to jump into it to see if I can make some further understanding of what I didn't get before.

No problem and feel free to ask any questions that arise

Right, so the most important rule of the lore forum is this: never believe anything we say.


Source? Just because she's known as a nature goddess does not mean she created animals.

Are we absolutely sure that the Dovahkiin is a Shezzarrine? I know theres a lot of talk about this and I believe it myself too, but without that seventh song...ha, cause think of the irony. Shezzarrine are basically aspects of Shezzar, who is a different face of Shor, in essence making you an aspect of Shor. You go to Sovernguard through a portal to fight "your" own Shield-Thane on your own supposed plane. After which you go into "your" own hall. Shor is now where to be found in the hall (making this statement more believable) and you get ancient warriors to come out and fight the very beast they banished at the Throat of the World's Dragon Break. With Alduin being Akatosh, you being a Shezzarine, and this final battle take place on "your" immortal plane its so classic King and Rebel ha, and , to me, very ironic and actually makes a ton of sense.

Then again I could have botched several things there.... Somebody make sure I didn't make it "too" simple to the point where I may have misinterpreted things

Misinterpretation is a byword in these parts.

Ha ok, well.... would you call my explanation rushed and inaccurate, or that its somewhat on the money? I'm still new to a lot of this information and am trying to connect it all.

There is no 'on the money.' There is no right answer. As far as I can tell you have connected it and explained it well, but I still think all this Shezzarine stuff is so much puffed up poppy-[censored]-and-bull. No one has yet made it cool enough for me to buy.

Challenge accepted.

Its Lorkhan bleeding through, its the purpose of Tamriel.
As I said on another thread, the Mundus is a tool for ascenscion.
Witness the Tower, CHIM and Amaranth.
Shezzarines exist to lift Lorkhan higher than from what he started, and thus defy the Aurbical constant of subgradiation.

Its symmetry.
As above, so below, it is the one tale being told over and over again.
Shezzarines exist to keep the Wheel turning.

Its a pillar, or tower.
Lorkhan dissolved into his project, possibly as he intended.
But the Mundus is unstable and always under attack from many directions.
Be it the eternal void of Sithis, or those that did not create but are drawn to it and are the Daedra, or be it those subgradients that themselves work counter to the project, such as Mannimarco and Dagoth Ur.
Shezzarines exist to hold the Mundus together.

All of these, or none, Ive always found the notion interesting enough

That would make sense lol, thats what this thread is for! ha, thanks a lot!!



That... was pretty wicked lol. Enjoyed it though

But how does this make the PC a Shezzarine? Sure, he stopped Alduin from eating the kalpa, but that might actually destroy Mundas rather than saving it to be recycled. There is a definite possibility that the PC is a Shezzarine, but no definite proof that he is, until we see what happens in future DLC.

That is usually so with TES lore.
There is very little written in stone, and things must most often be talked about in terms of possibility rather than certainty.

Cool, I always get confused between people saying he is a Shezzarine and people who say he might be a Shezzarine.

Can someone explain to me the concept of "The Tower"?

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower can.

So with the Kalpas... Are our existing gods then ancestors that were alive in a presumably linear existence, in the previous kalpas? Am I even allowed to think like that? How do we remember them? Is that part of the pieces that Dagon and Sheor Greedy-man were hiding?

Is the Celestial bodies an everlasting constant? With our wicked-a$$ time presentation, does that even matter? Are they still subject to potential change, even if once they change, they have always been what they are? Is there really just Eight of them? Why is there Eight? Why not Four? Or Eleven? Is this not dependent on the culture viewing them?

Is there even a shred of potential correctness in the assumption that what is described as "Dawn Era" holds a ton of Kalpas in which there could easily have been a Tamriel plausibly like the one we have today, with maybe another Ehlnofey mocking about, not too unlike our own but definitely a different thing? Are the Psijic Order and there old-school style one of the leftovers of these previous times?

How about the Nords? Is Atmora even on Nirn? Or are they moonmen? It doesn't subtract from their awesome. I do marvel looking at Jorrvaskr in Skyrim, thinking "This was made from wood... of Atmora. That's like having a boat of Antarctic wood. Or Marswood."

Isn't Lorkhan quite the badass? I mean agitating creation to come along, allowing me a Sovngarde upon death, after leading a life in Skyrim among beautiful Giants, Trolls, Mammoths, Bears eccentially allowing my dream of Theodor Kittelsen mixed with a bit of Robert E. Howard.

What was the "oldest" version of Borhamu? Does that question contradict itself? Then what is the oldest perception of Borhamu, and how long am I allowed to go back, before Time ceases to allow me?

Are there even answers for all this yet, or will there ever be? Do we all question most of what I ask about?

From what I understand of Kalpas, Alduin eats it all in the end and then it starts all over again like it did pre-creation. Each Kalpa is the same, but a few things change. These things can be the gods, for instance a new Akatosh should appear in the next Kalpa. What does this mean? Perhaps that the current Akatosh can no longer be tricked, or that people can't tell him apart from Peryite. Parts of each Kalpa do get carrried over to the next though, or perhaps that is simply what the Greedy man and the LDK were hiding from Alduin, and they succeeded once and not always.

I wouldn't call the Psijic order left overs from the previous Kalpa either, at least I see no reason to do so.

Personally I also see no reason to assume Atmora is not on Nirn. If it wasn't then the Nords would have left Nirn only to return later. But that just doesn't seem like their style, also Lorkhan is a bad ass But only if you call him Shor, otherwise he's just a heart that used to sit in a mountain. I don't know why, but that's just what I always think of when I hear Lorkhan and not when I hear Shor.

As for the oldest version of Barhamu, I don't think you can really say. Pre Dawn, when there was no time, which makes no sense because you not give an age to something that does not exist in time. His aspects didn't appear until later when there was time, but still in those years when time made no sense, so I'm not even going to try and answer that one.

Thank you Fishy87! It's great to have rooted out which answers there are for the stuff and which questions are just plain silly.

What if people believed Big Lungs to be a Shezarrine? Perhaps he would then become one. To the OP - this is mythopoeia. The beliefs of the people (re)shape their gods and the world around them. An individual's true self is just as important as his actions. It is said Saint Alessia made Akatosh men-friendly by getting an Empire to worship him and love him for loving all men and mer.

Now, on the first breath of Mundus. The conflict of Aka and Lorkhan took place in a time that was not a time, because Mundus was not yet fully formed and Aka was still free.
Your reasoning is very good. Good questions. Now I am, too, a bit confused about kalpas. I guess they are their own time as well as units of measurement of time...cosmic time, if that makes any sense. It's unlikely that the Psijic Order is a leftover. I see no reason for that.

Is Bormahu always the same? He is first and foremost time. It doesn't matter who Aka is on a personal level. He's a concept made manifest and a pillar of the world, also a schizophrenic god. He's pretty messed up, and whoever plays his role or takes his place, time's place, to become him, gets in deep [censored]. Times a mess that creates order.

Anyway, welcome to the lore forums and enjoy your stay.

edit: Excuse my iPhone for the English.