And that is why the forum is so much fun.

Especially in the old days when one discussion about "Why doesn't Scribs fly?" to a discussion about "How do you think Muatra looked when Vehk was young?" discussions... it's all great fun.

Lol, I would have killed to see that discussion.

Hello? Jyggalag?

Sheog still exists.

Hello? Trinimac?

Does Mehrunes Dagon, and Malacath also count?

are we talking per-godhood here or the mythical youth in the sermons?

imo, trinimac and jigy prove that daedra cannot trully be killed.

Yeah, but the whole Jyggalag thing never really happened.

Oi, actually this bit is a bit wierd for me. The way I always figured it was dagon used to formewrly kind of be like he was in Oblivion, then was banished by Alalexia and became as he appeared in Battlespire, then "died" again and came back like Oblivion. Mindless to Revolutionary to Mindless, with little indication of the cycle stopping. Since they say in Battlespire you tend to be different when you come back (skirted around in SI using those fountain things).

Not him, silly. Turning Jyggalag into Sheogorath was the murder-through-overwriting. A temporary and thus cyclically-repeated one, though.

Ah, ok. I see what you were saying.

I thought we were talking strictly inside of time. We ARE talking about gods being forgotten/not worshipped anymore, right? Jyg and Trinimac's fates were enacted outside of time.

Trinimac was punished around the time of the Velothi exodus. Outside of time?

Surely, you would have to destroy it's earthly form and then take on it's Oblivion form like Pelinal..

Bah, even if it is possible, i doubt anyone would have the balls to give it a go.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml#1 Now he is living out his curse, madly obsessed with destruction of all of the mortal plane and these 'kalpa' things(whatever they are, IIRC, what everthing is made of). Until he finishes his quest, he is Dagon. If I understan this right, once he completes the mission he becomes his normal self again, Demon Leaper King. Which is what he wants; the destruction of mortals is his must do, but his want to is to be his former self again. Thats how I understand it anyway. Battlespire, invasion of Mournhold, TES4 events, that thing that happened after which Sotha went to make a pact with Daedra Lords... all those are basically Dagon trying to destroy mortal plane, lift his curse and go happy leaping again.

Don't apply that quest to anything else.

Special circumstances, it doesn't apply to anything else.

Ok, so Daedra Lords can't "die" in the conventional sense. Would it be possible for them to be bound, or otherwise restricted from interfering in anything? Obviously it's possible for the other Daedra to affect another Daedra profoundly, as was shown with Jyg/Sheog.

One thing I was thinking of specifically is Molag Bal. Since he's the father of monsters (vampires included) if he were somehow changed, or if he was bound/restricted from meddling in things outside of his own realm of Oblivion, would monsters/vampires cease to exist/ cease to be created? Or would the process started by him continue on even in his absence? Or the processes begun by any Daedra, for that matter.

Check the aftermath of what happened to Azura at the Trial. It's still a possibility Vehk banished her and blocked her off from leaving her realm. That said, this may have been of her own will.

I don't really see how a Daedric prince's sphere can be "removed" from the world. Don't think its really possible.

My friends,

"As part of the divine contract of creation, the Aedra can be killed. Witness Lorkhan and the moons. The protean Daedra, for whom the rules do not apply, can only be banished." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/aedra_daedra.shtml)

There is a delicate balance between the Aedra and Daedra, which manifests as "The Wheel" in TES mythos, with said Aedra and Daedra being the spokes and voids respectively. (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#3) To remove one can unravel Mundus, allowing Time ("Aka") to become free-flowing and non-linear again, as it was prior to the Dawn Era.

So, can a Daedra be killed? No more than a computer can go against its programming. That which is Mundus (everyone in NIRN and comprising it) cannot, on its own, be anti-Mundus.


Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Perhaps. But consider the actions of Shor, who has manifested himself countless times on Nirn though he was "killed" at the Convention.

I won't necessarily refute what you're saying, TWM, but I will say I interpreted kill as in the same way you'd kill anything else: destroying a physical manifestation of it. If you killed an avatar of the god on Nirn, is his/her spoke removed? Of course, I don't think so, and I'm not insinuating that you are either.

For me, that begs the question of how do you remove a spoke of the Wheel of Creation?

And I'm glad to see you post after such a long time.

I got that much, but I'm talking abpout a subchange within the change of leaper demon to Dagon. Remember how in Battlespire he seemed a lot more intelligent and strategic? Where in 2920 and Oblivion he was just balls-out slaughter? It's both destruction, both the same goals, but different in the details. What I mean is that "killing," insomuch as is possible, a Daedra Lord still is that thing, but embodied differently (slaughter to subversion and back). My question is, does that influence anything in the Mortal World? For example, is that why Jagar Tharn is an awesome, subversive schemer while CXamoran is just a nutty cultist?

Great answer, TWM. That makes a lot of sense. But please, continue the conversation; it's most entertaining.

Never played Battlespire, never looked into the Lore of it either. Dagon, he is just trying different approaches, I assume. Somehow I dont think you can destroy his Battlespire avatar and remove his cleverness and then destory his avatar in Oblivion and rid him of his brute force approach. I doubt getting his you know what banishes back affects him in any such way. And I know of no way to kill a part of him that is clever or brutaly head on or whatnot. If there is a way, I havent come across it. But dont ask me, I am still new to this; I know some things but I am not as familiar with all this as it might sound .
I think Dagon is just trying new ways of doing it because the previous one failed and picks the type of people according to his scheme; clever Tharn for clever scheme and a nutty cultist for a nuts, brutal head on invasion. I seriously doubt his cleverness was in any way lessened after Battlespise and he had to resort to brutality becuase there was no choice for clever plan. If thats the effect that these banishings have on him, than I feel sorry for him for he will never complete his crusade that way. If these banishings were effecting him in such a way, he'd probably know about it and be more careful. Note that this is speculation on my behalf, so get a second opinion.

Of course, break Akatosh and the rest of the spokes collapse as well, leading to the Hurling Disk and the Mnemolia Day Parade.