So starting with 4's out of 10's in each special category is likely going to put that character in dire straits sooner rather than later and It seems like "fair warning" that trying to be adept at all things could really be the worst way to play now.

You do know we have no level limit and can most likely level up all of our SPECIAL to 10, right? If anything, that's exactly how our characters will end up-a jack of all trades.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. I think the Jack-of-all-trades has actually gained more merit since Bethesda took over. In the first two Fallouts it was nigh impossible. In Fallout 3 (and Fallout 4 I expect) it was easily possible.

I think with Fallout 4 they've struck a middle ground. It's possible to go JoAT, but it's going to take a lot longer than in Fallout 3. Consider that if you initially only levelled your SPECIAL to 10 you'd be level 42 before you even started selecting perks. That's not a low level. Specialising early on is definitely going to be almost mandatory with expansion coming later once your core focuses are perfected. It'll be for the players that are deliberately going for the "must have everything" approach. Your average player will likely never see a JoAT character like they did in Fallout 3.

Yeah it's going to take some work to master everything I think.

But also isn't the phrase actually "Jack of all Trades, Master of none?" Back in the day the concept used to be that someone could pretty good at everything but you'd need some degree of focus if you wanted to really master something.

Mechanically-speaking a JOAT would have modest values in everything back in the day - but doing so would innately mean you didn't master everything.

Anyway I think it'll still be possible to be Batman if you spend enough time on it, but (and this would be ideal for me) isn't just a given side effect from just playing the game. It'll take some specific effort and time to be Batman.

Jack-of-all-trades isn't dead, just a bit harder to achieve.

It seems that if you keep playing enough you will be both a Jack of all Trades - and the master of those at that.

I believe any character we play for any length of time will be Master of All Trades, which unfortunately means that they'll basically all end up being the same. So much for replay value.

Yeah, um, it's going to take hundreds of hours to even come close to maxing everything out, let alone filling up half of the perk chart. I don't think anyone should be really worried. And since leveling is mostly nonlinear, players can have very different experiences even within the same SPECIAL spread.

We saw at least one perk rank has a level cap of 49, so I'm guessing level 50 will be a normal level outside of speed running. Add in possibility of bobbleheads, quests and implants raising your SPECIAL I think getting them high up wont be too hard or uncommon.

Only reason people went master of all trades in Fo3 and NV was because you could easily get enough skill points without taking perks or using skill books to max them. 4 doesn't have them insted has perks so being a master of all gameplay still wont be an issue.

My guess remains that's going to take extra effort and grinding beyond completing all the content to do so though.

I'm going to retire my character once I've done all the quests and completed the story. I doubt I'll be Batman by that time.

I may continue to play with the settlements for a time after that, and may gain more levels as a side effect - even then I wonder if that'd be enough.

Yep. The lack of a level cap/new system does make it harder to be a JoaT, from one point of view - because it makes it easier to be a master of all trades.

Of course, the TES games have also had the possibility of JOAT/MOAT, since you can level up any & all skills. My characters tend to end up JoaTs, because I use a bunch of skills, a bit. Not enough to get them all to 100, or even many of them, though. The fact that you only level the skills you use helps avoid MoaT.

Whereas in Fallout 3, with the increased lv30 cap, all my characters tend to end up MoaTs (at least skill-wise), since there's so many skill points you end up pushing everything up, even skills you don't use. Can't get all the perks, and getting all 10 SPECIAL takes deliberate planning (don't collect any bobbleheads until after Almost Perfect perk).

With FO4 allowing you to get absolutely everything, a true MoaT is possible (all perks, max Special, etc).... but we don't know how long it'll take to get all those levels.

-----

I've actually tended towards real JoaTs ("and Master of None") in RPGs I play, tabletop and digital, unless the game system makes it difficult. Needless to say, this is a problem for me in games that are balanced to require focus & min/max to succeed (D&D Online, or ARPGs at their higher difficult levels, for instance)

Okay. For anyone worried about maxing out too quickly, which would mean that we all end up with the same character, here is something to think about.

Todd has already confirmed that the rate of levelling will be somewhere between Fallout 3 and Skyrim, and so the estimate I have been using is 25(2*n+4)(n-1), where 'n' is your current level. Also, because we know the total number of perks on the chart (275 including the 7 training perks), as well as the maximum number of stat increases (42), we can work out the highest achievable level, which is 311.

Lets look at a 'halfway point' of level 160. By this time, you would have acquired a substantial number of perks and stat increases. But there would also be a huge number of perks still to go (over 150 remaining ranks if you'd maxed out all of your stats by this time). The XP required to achieve this level would be 1,287,900. This is far more than the total XP from all previous games combined. If you averaged 2,000 XP per hour, this would take over 640 hours!

Now lets look at the maximum level of 311. To reach such a level, you would need to acquire a total of 4,851,500 XP. This is almost 4 times the amount required to achieve level 160, and would take over 2,400 hours to achieve. If you played for 4 hours a day, 7 days a week, you would not reach this point for over a year and a half.

And so, nobody is going to have to worry about losing replay value, or everyone ending up with the same character. At least not for a very very long time...

This was on purpose ~surely.
(How is this seen as a good change?)

No, I think it's a bad change actually. In relation to this I do miss the good old days, like you Giz.

Little known, but the full phrase is actually "Jack of all trades, master of none, but often times better than a master of one."

For early-mid game I'd probably agree - the higher attribute perks are specialized an powerful enough that you'd be missing a distinct advantage without them. But late-game that won't be a problem. And yes you can be a master of all if you dedicate your life to stupid boring grinding.

I'll give you that. Even in Skyrim you 'could' max out everything given time. I never did because I focused on certain skills with each character and retired them after completing what I felt was a full role-play of the character. I can see myself doing the same in FO4. Other than lockpicking and hacking, which are all but required, there needs to be a lot of 'optional' skill paths to choose from. So far this looks good in FO4.

Jack of All Trades, Master of None basically means you are not weak at anything but you should not be trusted with anything truly complex. Basically, it is like the difference between an experienced General Practitioner and a Neurosurgeon. The General Practitioner is probably the best choice for your day to day medical needs, but if you show up at his/her office with a wood chisel embedding in your skull, the Neurosurgeon is the one that should be called in to yank it out.

Jack of All Trades was possible in all Fallout games. Master of All Trades is impossible in all Fallout games up through Fallout NV.

Look, while skill points are important, the real power in any Fallout game was in the Perks. Maxing out a skill in Fallout does NOT give you Master status, for that you also need all the relevant Perks. We could come close in Fallout 3 and Fallout NV, but without resorting to console commands you could not get all the Perks that were required for you to call yourself a Master of All Trades.

As for becoming a Master of All Trades in Fallout 4? Well, it is now possible, but I doubt very many people will create such a character considering the time investment involved. Most likely many will master a few trades, but not all of them. And really, what would be the point? Not all types of combat and other interactions interest me. Mastering everything would involve me "training up" things in which I have little or no interest.

I just want to say how freaking impressed I am with your math and logic, my eyes got really wide once I read near the end. Awesome, thanks for all the effort in calculating that to put in some much needed perspective.

The phrase that comes to mind here is "Jack of all trades, master of some." I think that's how it's going to play out.

is up to u how u make ur character so u arent force to spend the points. Todd said it already u arent force to spend the points when u level.

Plus it all depend on how fast we can level. Saying u dont have replay value bc u can master all the abilities that is a error.

I never sweat the stat game. I pick a settup, and I ride it and adjust how I need to. Like a leaf on the current.

Death? Jack of all trades was never so much powerful in any Bethesda game or Fallout before. You can max out EVERYTHING with time.

But it takes longer. Of course you could level until you are level 200-300... but this would take you a long time. In an everage game you level out less than before.

You're definitely not going to stumble into maxing out your character, that's for sure.
It is going to have to be something that is done quite deliberately.

Not that you could simply max out a F3 build with ease or by accident. You become grossly OP just by playing the game, yes. But for maxing out you had to know the sequence of doing things, which perks to take, where skill mags and bobbleheads are, and so on.