So this morning after not playing Fallout 3 and I came to realize something that drove me nuts. Fallout 3 has alot of great 1950s narrative of before the war, but it's all environmental, and I came to realize that only 3-4 make any real reference to the Pre-War world. Like it never existed. New Vegas has spoiled me with it's Pre-War glory world. Now it drives me crazy that any Pre-War tech in DC people that arent BoS scribes will look at it like a brain dead monkey.

Am I the only person who noticed that F3 seems to lack any real NPC admission of Pre-War things compared to New Vegas? What are your opinions on this?

Well in the capital wasland the only people who care about anything pre-war besides guns and food are the brotherhood. Everone else cares about 3 thing Guns, Food, and Ammo.

True, but playing Fallout 3 made me feel like I was knocked into the Stone Ages. Granted 70+ Atomic Warheads would do that, but still, the atmosphere was perfect, but for the most part, they felt like merely set pieces. Obsidian made alot of flaws in New Vegas, but building a game like New Vegas in only 2 years, this is expected. But one thing I appreciate is that there feels like alot more of an understanding of Pre-War technology. I mean hell, I dont recall F3 houses using Fission Batteries as generators like people in New Vegas do.

Might be better placed in the FO3 forum, this...

The odd ghoul talks about the pre-war world, Tulip in Underworld springs to mind.

I'm not sure I understand the complaint here, tbh. Are you saying there should be more references to the Old World? There are plenty of computer terminals and audiologs that do. If anything, I get much less sense of the Old World in NV. You'd hardly know there had been a war from the environment.

Well New Vegas never was directly hit by bombs, and based on the craters Im seen, they were in isolated regions. And yes that is my complaint. Because in New Vegas, people seem to be trying to setttle down like Pre-War folks, where as in DC its like people apart from the BoS had no drive to build, I hope if F4 revisits the east, the purifier will have lead to rapid rebuilding.

I love how most places in New Vegas have their own power sources. I dont know, compared to New Vegas, things in DC feel stone age.

Like how the bombs were just dropped yesterday even though in fact it's been 200 years? :whistling:

See, my feeling on that isnt as its a design flaw on Bethesdas part, it feels like people in CW have no drive for a safe and stable society, they wait for the knight in shining armor to come storming in with the dawn at his back.

Well, like you say, DC was harder hit by the war. It essentially was nuked back to the stone age (to paraphrase Don Rumsfeld).



Civilization is a very tenuous, fragile state of being, and in the face of a massive natural disaster, cataclysm or war-induced societal collapse the veneer disappears very quickly indeed. I'm not sure that, after a full-scale nuclear war, two centuries would be anywhere near enough time for civilization to begin rearing its head again, or at least in anything other than a very primitive, tribal, superstitious 'ape and essence' fashion. And certainly I think pre-war values and standards would be utterly reviled to the point of religious fervour. These were the values that brought about armageddon. The concept of living like your pre-war forefathers would be completely and utterly rejected by most, I think, even supposing any pre-war knowledge actually survived the collapse.

(It's for this reason that I don't think any of the games present anything like a realistic portrayal of an actual post-apocalyptic society. Good thing they're games and not exercises in futurology, I guess.)

Not the only, but the only pre-war reference that comes to mind is the Ghoul that says he used to vacation at Ten Penny Towers before (IIRtC).

These could be remnant of atomic tests held in the desert. You can find several of our own in Google Earth (or they appear to be).

Here is something to see... http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/vegas_vic.jpg
(note the mushroom cloud on the horizon :nuke:)

I kind of had this feeling about both NV and FO3. It's weird that all it takes to fix the world is one person shuffling around looking for work until s/he gets good enough at shooting things to change local power balance entirely.

As for the timeframe: Think about the development of American industry and culture between 1776 and 1976 (or, if you want to go back to when the 13 colonies were starting to be formed, 1607 to 1807). I realize that coming back from a nuclear apocalypse may be more challenging than simply colonizing open land, but it still feels like more could've been done in the span of 200 years. I try to ignore that timeframe when I play, though. Feels appropriately post-apocalyptic otherwise.

There's a simple reason, really.

New Vegas takes place near where FO1 and FO2 takes place. By all accounts, the survivors were rebuilding due to the combined actions of the Vault Dweller and the Chosen One, one pre-empted a Super Mutant Uprising, and the second prevented the US Gov't from killing almost everyone on the earth.

In FO3, there is no special hero who arrives before the Lone Wanderer to help rebuild. That, combined with the fact that DC and the surrounding area was presumed to be hit the hardest, it pretty much blasted any form of civlization there back to the stone age. And the only group that's trying to help rebuild came from OUTSIDE of DC (the BoS comes from Out West.) Let's also not forget that the Super Mutants were apparently a threat before the BoS arrived (they make mentions of finding the Super Mutants in DC.)

It's not so much that DC didn't have the time to rebuild, it's just that they had to ALSO fight genetically-engenered supermen from almost the start as well.

As for the above comment... well, the development between 1776 and 1976 was helped by the fact that the people weren't exactly fighting Super Mutants and Death Claws, and that they also had a reliable source of food and clean water. You can't very well build civilization if you run the high risk of death each day or if you're more concerned about scrounging up the required 1500 calories your body needs every day.

Isn't that basically what the Vault Dweller and Chosen One were in FO1/2, respectively?

This annoyed me to pieces in FO3. The world just has no beliveablity. I mean, why is the power still on after 200 years?

And the other thing is, why are there no countries or why isn't anyone rebuilding anything? 200 years is a VERY long time. 1776 was nothing like 1976. Humans adapt, rebuild, and thrive.

This is very true.

Also, having essentially been reduced to a hunter-gatherer state of subsistence, I'm not sure that two centuries is such a long time, particularly given who knows what skills and knowledge were among the casualties of the war.



There aren't nation states per se but we see the formation of what essentially are feudal kingdoms like NCR and the territories of Caesar. But the Capital Wasteland is too blown to hell, the bombs/disease/super mutant menace etc. and so on mean just reaching a level of functioning city-states is a barely achievable dream, never mind actual nationhood.

But what about the Roman Empire? After it fell, almost all of the knowlege was gone, but within a century, you saw civilizations appearing right out of the rubble of the old Roman Empire.

The problem with that anology is that Rome wasn't sacked with nuclear weapons that rendered the city and surrounding environs poisonous and arid for decades if not centuries, and Rome wasn't subsequently beset by wave after wave of genetically modified super soldiers. Nor did the sacking of Rome lead to the local wildlife becoming infinitely more dangerous and deadly. Also, though Rome may have collapsed, there were still other centres of civilization that survived, other regional powers able to fill the vacuum, preserve knowledge and continue the slow dance of civilization. In the FO universe, essentially, the world has ended. This isn't one empire collapsing, it's every empire collapsing simultaneously.

I don't think I will ever have nostalgia to play FO3 like I do with FO1,FO2 and Tactics. I will for New Vegas for that I am sure. I keep FO3 on my shelf along with the others but some times I can't help wanting to remove it, just does not belong IMO. I play New Vegas and I can't help but think FO3 should have been this. So much is missing from FO3. Characters do feel boring to me. So many quests fall short (why could I not help "The Surgeon" at the Red Racer Factory get a Behemoth like he wanted? Theres one in a damn cage at Evergreen Mills but no he just attacks me on site like everyone else). Pretty much everyone is a bad guy. People attacking me for no reason other then I have good karma. No reputation system, No Mutiple endings, No damage threshold, Feels like a T-teen game and looks like the bombs feel yesterday when its been 200 years as others have pointed out and just an over all bad story that feels like they took FO1's and FO2's and mashed them together.

Well, I think the reason it seems that the people of the Capitol Wasteland have no drive to rebuild is because they didn't; and they haven't, really, since the bombs fell. I think this sets up a lot of the (rather weak but still fairly groovy) storyline for FO3.
By the time the Lone Wanderer comes out of 101, there had only been serious efforts at rebuilding for ... what? ... 40 years or so? Rivet City has only just settled down in to the safest and most secure city; most all of the other communities have been sort of "on-the-fly" gatherings of a few dozen people banding together to fight off raiders and the awesome number of critters roaming the Capitol Wastes.

By the time we (the players) pick up the story of the Courier, New Vegas has been well established, along with the "suburbs" of Freeside, Westside, etc. as well as the NCR's central base at McCarren. Add to that the heavily armed Gun Runners and successful Crimson Caravan and it follows that there is more of a sense of the civilized to the Mojave. Also, the critters of the Mojave, while slightly more fearsome than some of the Capitol counterparts, are fewer and further between. At least, it seems that way to me.

Another thing to consider is that DC, at the time the Wanderer makes is name in the Wasteland, is veritably overrun with Super Mutants, whereas the West Coast had already dealt (for the most part) with its version of those creatures. The Super Mutants that came out of 87 were also more mindless, incredibly aggressive and just plain destructive, setting up shop right in the heart of DC. Add in the fact that the Talon Company, for reasons unknown, had their own mission of destruction and their own war with the Super Mutants ... well, it's understandable how civilization on the East Coast faltered just as it was finally getting back on its feet.
This is especially true since the East Coast BoS has fractured producing one faction obsessed with the original mandate and another not quite sure what the hell it's doing. I mean, it wasn't until James goes back to work and the Wanderer comes along that the BoS once more actively supports Project Purity. Up until then, they had been fighting the same idiotic "holding action" that Oliver has the NCR doing on the West Coast.

New Vegas definitely had the good fortune of being protected by someone as forward thinking as Mr. House and being in proximity to California which put it within easy reach of the NCR. Those two situations alone go a long way toward explaining the survival (in a sense) of pre-war culture. That is easily seen in the fact that pre-war books are everywhere and not quite as valued as they are on the East Coast.

I think all of this is an element of storytelling and not at all like a design flaw.
Basically, we've hit the nail on the head with the idea that DC got hit directly and heavily by the bombs while New Vegas was shielded. To me, one of the great things about Fallout in general is that they storytelling relies completely on the societal viewpoint of the 1950's. From that outlook, 200 years is about right for the heavy concentrations of radiation to fade enough for normal-ish humans to begin stretching back out and reconnecting from isolated settlements and Vaults. I found this explained fairly well by the limited supply lines maintained by so few caravans. It takes a brave soul to go scavenging out in the Wasteland, let alone pack up a brahmin and go trading, when you've probably seen a hundred years of people doing that and never coming back ... or worse, coming back as a monster.

So, I agree: FO3 definitely has a lesser sense of pre-war culture survival than New Vegas.
I think each story was written that way on purpose and it goes a long way to giving each game a more unique feel. It's really just back story, but it adds to the whole and helps create the identity of each game.

That's my half-cap, anyway.

In reference to the OP, I did feel in New Vegas like there was more of a focus on... "grounding" the locations and NPCs a bit more. Like there was a bit more thought going into exactly how this particular settlement functioned, what it's role in the local power structure was, etc. I think what Bethesda, in general, tends to focus on more is building (very impressive) set pieces, from the concept on down. I get the feeling that Obsidian's approach was a bit more about starting with "what does this place do, how does it survive, and "work?" and then tailoring a look to fit that concept.

Though, of course, I did think that (IMHO) Fallout 3 often ended up looking a bit more visually impressive, for this. Hopefully this can lead to a nice fusion with Fallout 4...

As far as the 200 hundred years thing - yeah, I also try not to think about that too much. I mean, that's a long time. Frankly, I think that's a Bethesda thing. I got the feeling that they're just very used to these high-Fantasy concepts, where a gap of a couple of centuries between the internal narrative of the game isn't going to be that big of a deal - as compared to something like Fallout (with it's own already-tenuous relationship with "reality,") and just what sort of an impact a time-frame move like that could be.

2 more games in, and I suppose it's probably a bit late to retcon out - so I just try not to think about it too much.

We might want to consider a larger perspective here

It also seems as though some folks haven't grasped the fundamental precept of these games: War never changes—assuming the inclusive: war has not changed and will not change.

It never changes because human nature never changes. Hominids, in the several million years they have been on this planet, have shown little in the way of behavioral evolution since evolving into Homo Sapiens 200,000 years ago—and none in the past 50,000 whence it is generally agreed we reached Behavioral Modernity.

It also brings up the axiom that those who cannot (fail to) remember (learn from) (the mistakes of) the past are doomed to repeat it (them.) Those who bandy about terms like 'Stone Age', as in , "Bombed back to the Stone Age) seem to have failed to grasp that 'the' Stone Age extends to almost 3 million years ago. Long before the Hominid creatures of the day would ever be referred to as 'Man.'

Secondly, even in the first fallout, which took place 84 years after the Great War, it is unlikely that anyone except ghouls would be alive and able to remember what society was like first hand. By FO3 (GW +200 years) and FONV (GW +204 years) that likelihood becomes a certainty.

Granted, they have the benefit of written and oral, as well as electronic historical records and the remainders of a highly developed and industrialized technology. it is unlikely that Post Apocalyptic man will need 50,000 years to reconstitute the world of 2077— or even the 3,400 years since entering the Iron Age.

But what man has retained along with that ability to recover, is the ability to massively eradicate his brethren—along with the inability to socialize. War never changes.

Obsidian should be given its due for the introduction of the Great Khans, Caesar's Legion, the Fiends and the Super Mutant communities of Utobitha and Jacobstown. They have considerably enriched the Fallout world and our gaming experience, while remaining true to the precepts and concepts of the Fallout Universe.

Edited to consider some postings made while this was being written

Not everyone belives that the world has been around for millions of years

My take on it was that the Super Mutant infestation made that practically impossible. They've been under threat by them so long that they don't know aything else. The Mojave Super Mutants (that are not orcs) are not a threath, and wars are fought between (more or less) civilised humans (excluding Fiends taking the place of the orcs ).



Yet those people are perfectly happy using technologies with hundreds of years of scientific research behind them :shrug:

I imagine people in DC aren't interested in it because it's a harsher environment. Raiders thrive because there's a lot of places to hide, ambush and defend, and the only peacekeepers are rare groups of BoS knights and ineffective bounty hunters.

You all have good points about differences, I think my problems isnt the world, Bethesda nailed it down, it was behaviour in the world that felt to off. I mean, it feels like there was no technological reignition until the purifier at the Jefferson Memorial was activated and the BoS started flying vertibirds. I know theres leaps before bounds and all, but it just feels a little off in terms of survival. DC is beautiful, but I feel the survival aspect was neglected for the 'the world is hell will you aim to make it safe?' feel.

I think Fallout 3 definitely has more of a post nuclear holocaust feel,
I think that's why I like it so much. Where as New Vegas doesn't really feel like
there was a nuclear holocaust, New Vegas has too many things going on
to be a post nuclear holocaust game, don't get me wrong, it's my favorite
game but it just doesn't feel like the great war ever happened.
But in Fallout 3 evidence of the great war is everywhere, you cannot miss it.

:fallout: