I felt like compiling my thoughts on the black sheep of the TES series into one wall of text. Not really sure which way the discussion will go, but I've been developing this throughout numerous threads, some open, some locked, and I wanted to organize it for myself and share it with all of you. Maybe some of you will agree. I'm willing to bet most of you will not.

So, to start, a little history. I was introduced to the Elder Scrolls series with Morrowind back in 2003, and fell in love. Not right away, granted. I was far too young to appreciate its depth at the time, and I was scared off by the combat system, the aggravating movement speed, the interface that I couldn't quite seem to grasp. I originally never got further than the first story mission (obtaining the Dwemer Puzzle Box) because I just didn't get how the game was meant to be played. However, after taking a break for a couple of years, I tried it again, and that's when I was hooked. To this day, it's still my all-time favorite game. I loved the exploration, the characters, the sense of accomplishment that followed my progress from zero to hero. And I loved the world, the strange, foreign nature of the Dunmer and their home. Honestly, I've never completed the main quest because I've always been svcked into the side stories, the factions, just wandering the world and seeing what it has to offer. It did a great deal of things very, very well, and despite its numerous technical faults (though what Bethesda game doesn't have those?) it was the greatest impact a video game had ever had on me.

Oblivion is, to be fair, more action-oriented than some other games in the series. But I don't think that that is a bad thing, or that it makes it a bad RPG. Every game in the series has been designed to feel unique and to stand on its own two legs within the continuous mythos of the Elder Scrolls series, and has been designed with a different focus in mind. Arena was a broad overview of the world of Tamriel, and a general introduction to the mechanics of the series. Daggerfall was focused on politics and inter-faction conflict, with more emphasis placed on the major political figures and less emphasis placed on crafting a detailed or unique world. Morrowind, on the other hand, was all about the world. It focused on making the landscape, the culture, the characters and the creatures strange and alien. However, it de-emphasized the main quest. There was no sense of urgency to deal with any of the major figures of Vvardenfell or their petty conflicts, and aside from rumors of trouble with the Temple and some sort of disruption at Red Mountain, there was no real incentive for you to deal with that right away.

With Oblivion, Bethesda took a different stance. Rather than emphasizing politics or atmosphere as the games before it respectively did, Bethesda chose to create a focused, epic storyline that would demand the player's attention. Other than blatantly throwing your cares to the wind and simply not engaging in the main quest, there wasn't really an opportunity to take a break and breathe in the world, at least until the threat that you were facing was already well-established as you saved Martin from peril. The world was still very rich and deep if you managed to take a step back from the immediacy of the main quest, but as the history of the province was not tied into the main quest, a great deal of players never chose to explore it. Still, the depth and richness in the world that Bethesda is famous for is still there, it's just not as immediately obvious.

Ironically, despite being focused on a grand and terrible conflict, Oblivion was a much more subtle game than others in the series. The land has a more unified theme than Vvardenfell, but the different regions do have different weather patterns, flora, and atmosphere. The lore is as rich as it ever was (I reveled in every bit of information I could find that revealed more about the mysterious Ayleids--- their spiritual beliefs, their architecture, their politics, the fall of their empire, and even their role within the new empire.), but because the vast, VAST majority of it isn't tied to the main quest in any significant way, it requires you, the player, to actively search for it. Likewise, there's much to do, see, and explore in Cyrodiil if you don't give in to the temptation to fast travel-- Daedric shrines, mysterious ruins, settlements too small to be marked on a map, and many, many quests. Fast travel is a convenient crutch for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to get into the meat of the game, who just want to play the main quest, which is the focus of the game, and move on to something else. They don't care about the lore, they don't care about the world, or maybe they don't have the time-- jobs and school are great motivators to take the path of least resistance when playing a video game. Oblivion still has a lot to offer for these people, but it has so much more to offer for those who really take the time to get to know it. But it really does take more of an effort to get to know it than it does in Morrowind, because it's not the main focus of the game.

It did have its share of faults. While politics weren't integral to the main story, they should have been present in the heart of a continent-spanning empire. There should have been more joinable factions, and in streamlining the gameplay, Bethesda did arguably go too far (at least, I'm of the opinion that they did). Voice acting is a contentious matter that I don't really plan on getting into here. Either it's something that you like, and you feel that it adds something to the game and has a place within the series, or you don't. Not much room for discussion or middle ground there. However, what frustrates me when Oblivion gets brought into discussions on the forums and the arguments seem to be made by people who play by following the quest arrow, fast traveling to quest locations, and never opening a book that's not related to a quest, and then complain that there's nothing more to the world than the main quest. There is if you let it. I love Oblivion, just like I love Morrowind. But I love it in a different way and play it for different reasons, which I think is exactly what Bethesda intended.

Alright, I'm done for now (though I'll probably come back and edit in points as I think of them). Thread is open for discussion. Just please, please keep it civil.

I have played through all parts of oblivion, and i believe you are a genius, you just put everything that I have ever expressed for these games ( which are my favorites and I love them more than you can imagine) Into words.
This is everything that everyone who plays TES games realizes about them after they become hooked, but you're the first to put it into words. You just unearthed even more love for bethesda for me. Thank you.

The exact same happened with me. I played Oblivion for the 360 at my uncles house for the first time. My brain exploded. It was amazing. But I had no grasp of the true depth of the game, and how far it dug into combat and dungeon diving, long story lines laced with situations that come with so much adrenaline you start sweating, this is Oblivion. This is the best game ever. No doubt. This goes for Morrowind too, anything by bethesda is amazing, and always will be. Bethesda has a way of creating the RPG situations and getting every little detail, the names, the characters, the weapons, the spells, from the mountains, to the oceans, to anvil, a port city with tons of adventure and treasures to be had, to cheydinal with corrupt guards, EVERY single aspect of the RPG, Bethesda has it MASTERED. Forever and always.

I agree. While Oblivion was not perfect, and some say it may not have lived up to Morrowind's standards, I cannot stand people that say that it was the most horrendous game ever to be put on the shelves. It's not the terrible game people make it out to be on these forums. If it was so terrible, how was it so successful and is still being called one of the best games ever?

In my opinion:

Cryodiil failed to give me the feeling of being in a huge world, a world supposedly larger than Morrowind. When I play Morrowind, the world feels twice as big as Cyrodiil ever did. And before you think it's because of the ever-present fog, I actually play with MGE and have distant landscapes turned on, so I can see everything ahead of me just as clearly as I can in Oblivion. And I play with a mod that makes my walking speed faster, so it's not because of the slow movement. To be honest, I don't know why, but when I play Morrowind, the world feels huge, but when I play Oblivion, the world feels small, even though I don't fast travel. I personally think it's because the locations in Oblivion are much, much more spaced out than they were in Morrowind. Very often, while I explore Cyrodiil, I'll find myself walking in empty space, surrounded by scenery, but with no locations nearby or in the distance. Often I'll walk for a full minute without finding anything. That isn't the case with Morrowind. There's almost always another location just around the corner.

Luckily they pretty much fixed this problem with Fallout 3. I explored every last corner of that game and only very, very rarely did I find myself not near another location, no matter how small that location was. There was always something around the corner. Of course, this is counting locations not marked by map markers. Because of this, I'm not worried about TES V in this aspect.

Oblivion also failed in another aspect. In Morrowind, the architecture was absolutely stunning. It's all just so unique. Most cities were so different from each other, yet they all managed to look great. Balmora looked vastly different than Ald'ruhn, both of which looked vastly different from Vivec, all of which looked vastly different from Sadrith Mora, and so on and so on. Yet they all managed to look amazing, each one in it's own way. In Oblivion, all of the cities, despite having different layouts, all looked pretty much the same. Sure, you could tell which one was which very easily, but when you consider how different the cities in Morrowind were, the cities in Oblivion were essentially the same.

Again, Fallout 3 fixed this. Megaton didn't look anything like Rivet City, neither of which looked like Big Town. None of them looked like Tenpenny Tower or The Citadel. And so on and so on. Despite being a post apocalyptic wasteland, the cities looked far more different from each other than the cities in Oblivion did. So I'm not worried about TES V in that aspect either.

I will give Oblivion one thing though. I find it more enjoyable to play than Morrowind. In the past I stated that it was because of the graphics. But I recently got a new heatsink, which enabled me to install MGE and a lot of other graphic enhancing mods, so now Morrowind looks amazing. But I still have more fun in Oblivion. I prefer to explore in Morrowind, don't get me wrong, and in that regard prefer playing Morrowind, but if I just want to have fun, I'll play Oblivion. It's not even because of Morrowind's terrible combat system. I don't know why, honestly. But if TES V can combine all the things I liked more in Morrowind, and the enjoyment I get more from Oblivion, I will absolutely love TES V.

It's terrible when compared to Morrowind in many eyes. Which is why it's torn apart. It's for FPS-players for the most part (the casual audience). Morrowind=RPG. Oblivion=Action RPG.

Two things

1. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Oblivion the most horrendous game ever. Not in person, or on these forums. If I have it would've been far and away from these forums, or from anyone I know. People who complain about Oblivion on these forums generally don't think it would be a bad stand alone game, they just think it's not an improvement from Morrowind.

2. Just because something is successful and has sold alot of units doesn't mean it's "great" or "the best game ever". Popularity deals with fads, which will fade away eventually. But that's not to say that anybodies opinion is invalid. It works both ways.

That said, Oblivion is one of my favorite games I've ever played. I think people should be more positive when concerning these games. Tell what they like about them. The current trend I'm seeing is people telling what Morrowind did good and Oblivion did bad, and/or ruined. I really do not think that is productive. I think telling what you liked from each game would prove to be effective, more than just complaining about what you didn't like. Because if your just telling what you didn't like the dev's can go anywhere from there, and bring it more into an opposite direction than you would've liked.

BTW great post "Saint_Jiub", it really sums up how I feel about the series as well. I too am somebody who has started the series with Morrowind, and absolutely loved both games.

I don't wan't to start bashing Oblivion. Let me just say that Fallout 3 had some of those things that Oblivion should have.

For me Fallout 3 and Morrowind have more in common than with Oblivion.

I enjoy both games with a different love for it, and see the promise that Oblivion tried to deliver.

For one, the character generation enabling you to tweak facial features was very surprising, the only thing that would have made it better was to add facial hair, which as a bearded fellow, would have been nice.

I loved the feel of Oblivion's fauna. Seeing those deer jump and run was as exciting as being in the woods themselves. Even when the deer took an arrow, the sound of impact is very much like life. Disturbingly realistic. The wolves were a bit more like wild dogs to me, and I did miss seeing the Winged Twilights. The Spider Daedra made up for it, and her animations of extending her hand which has spines in her palm were a rendering feast.

Even though there were no Daedric shrines as I was used to seeing them in Morrowind, the Aeleid ruins and ruined forts were nicely done. The travel through the Oblivion gates were sufficiently spooky, and the added touch of reactive NPC's totally made me change my game play, since I was used to leaving an apple marker at places I had visited. When I tried this, one NPC walked over, picked up the apple and ate it walking away.

My jaw dropped at that.

But then I hit the walls. I looked at the Oblivion map both in hand and on the screen and said "WOW!" Skyrim! Elswyer! The other provinces? But reality slapped my face when I hit the force field. Understandable, as none of it had to do with the storyline or the main quests. It would have been pure genius on their part if they could have done it, was to remove the walls, place some towns and NPCS throughout just for those of us that see a map and are jumping at the bit to cover every square foot of it in exploration.

I must say I didn't care for the disposition wheel at all. Even though it only takes a bit to get used to it, I would have preferred to just throw some coin, a kind word, or a dagger's point to get my meaning across to the NPC's. Same for the use of the lockpicks. Better to see your hand trying to figit with the lock and hear the dangers around you, than to adopt Superman's vision to see the tumblers and workings only to see the picks get broken in two. For all of those that mention the issues of resources wasted on dialogue, think of how much would have been saved with the removal of those two for something easier?

I'm a walker, always have been. I've walked my characters through Kunark, Morrowind, Faerun, Menzoberannzan, and a Plagas infected village in Spain. I have never gotten the chance to play Daggerfall, but when I hear many say that it was "too huge" to enjoy, I get the opposite reaction. I LONG to have a game that the land is so vast, gaming has to be taken in moderation. That is not to equate vast with desolate, like Shadow of the Colossus. But to have so much to explore, that enjoying it takes literally weeks or months to years of real time to get around, that's beautiful. I am glad that modders are fleshing out Oblivion for the PC, because all that land that was just eye candy is so much more now because of them.

The nods they threw to us with Oblivion with regard to Morrowind were a nice touch, but bittersweet. Like the fate of Svenja Snow-Song, someone who my character still reports to occasionally for Mead Hall profits and salutations. It adds to Obivion's overall feel as part of the series, but it is always sad when I go back and forth from one game to the other with the knowledge of it.

I think Oblivion is a great game, and like Morrowind it is incredibly replayable, especially if you enjoy the offerings of the modding community. Like Morrowind, I take great pleasure in knowing that never will come the day when playing that the screen will fill with music, cinematics, and credits rolling me back to a "Start" screen.

Unfortunately cells reset in Oblivion so your apple marker strategy wouldn't have worked anyway, even if NPC weren't around.

Luckily they remedied this in Fallout 3. ^_^

Personally, I don't see why people who favor Oblivion are labeled as Action-Addicted & Impatient. I've read nearly every book in the game, I almost never run when I'm going anywhere, I take my time, I look around, I get into the side-quests, and honestly I shy away from fighting. I just find it boring now. I started playing Oblivion in 2008, and when trying to go back 5 years in technological development (to Morrowind) my mind immediately picked up all of the changes from then to now. From audio-quality, to the way the characters mouths moved, to the way the animations were, to the way the surroundings looked... I just couldn't get past it because of that, it never "sparked" because I never loaded up the game and thought "Wooooah!" like so many people did when they got the game when it was still good for its time, I loaded it up and thought "... Meh"

It's not because I'm impatient or I don't like to spend time to read text-dialogue, it just wasn't that amazing in 2008, or now. Which is sad to me, because I would have loved to play it... but playing it actually felt pretty boring. :sadvaultboy:

I tried to look past the time development, but every time I had to talk to a character or even run forward I was reminded that the game was made when I was 10. Which is why I refuse to bash Morrowind, it's more likely than not an amazing game if it has so many dedicated fans. I hate getting a bad rep with the people who've been playing the games since Morrowind just because I prefer the game that's a bit more "My Time" compared to "Their Time". In a much more extreme sense, it's like comparing the People Who Love(d) Theatre vs. the People Who Love(d) Movies when Movies first came out. There were people used to the Theatre or just preferred it, and there were people used to the Movies or just preferred it. I'm just one of those people who're too used to the Movies to really enjoy the Theatre to its fullest.

But still, Oblivion is an amazing game in the aspect of being able to not run around doing everything and slow down. I mean... I even found a troll under a bridge... Well, it got depressed because nobody paid the toll, got drunk, wrote a note, and drown itself... but I found a troll nonetheless.

There are so many parts of the game that you really have to peel back the layers to find. Playing Oblivion while being willing to explore the road less traveled is a completely different experience than just running through the main quest and doing the side quests people ask you to do when they call you. You have to look for the lore, it doesn't just jump out at you. Many people in Cyrodiil, much like in real life, fail to realize the history and magic of the world they live in.

I would say that Bethesda is one of the developers that heed their fan base too much, and any thing that they did in a game is the direct result of the complains from the previous game, but they would go too far in implementing their fans' wishes, and jump from an extreme to another, and then they try to fix the new complains after that, and so on...

Look at Shivering Isles that was just like a bit of Morrowind in the middle of Oblivion, because of the complains from the people who loved Morrowind and hated the new changes of Oblivion.

But hopefully these oscillations are dampening to a perfect and stable middle point that would please most of people, if not all.

That is why I have a high hope for the future of the series, if they do not make the mistake to turn them into MMO.

BGS does not make MMO's. If there is a MMO it will be made by the Zenimax team, and wouldn't really effect the actual ES series.

i believe, that a great way to put it is, It is IMPOSSIBLE for a company, any company, even a president, to please everyone. It just doesn't happen. That is what bethesda tried to do. They wanted to please everyone so they went with their fan base, and oblivion was less... amazing as it could have been. Still amazing though.

I like Oblivion better. Yet Morrowind is the better game. That's the way I think of it.

The way I view it is that Morrowind is "stately", while Oblivion is much more "brash".

If I were to play Morrowind, I'd need to decide where I was going to go, how I was going to get there, and how much free space I'd need on hand.
If I were playing Oblivion, I'd grab some sweetcakes and sacred lotus seeds, mix a few potions, and choose a destination.

In the end, I'd probably replay Assassin's Creed 2 instead, just because I love the control scheme.

Yeah, Assassin's Creed 2 is awesome. B)

I found myself a little surprised at the comments made in the main post. The main quest and story line wasn't, to any stretch of the imagination, focused or epic. It was extremely predictable and anti-climatic. In a nutshell, it was "Unknown person gets lucky and becomes known, then gets enough power to overthrow a impending doom." Sound familiar?

While Morrowind, and even the first two Elder Scrolls to some extent, followed the same basic style of story, they approached it in a way better and understandable viewpoint. How can impending doom not have influences with politics and lore? Why do Oblivion gates open around Cyrodil, and all Ocato did was "Golly, I sure hope some mighty strong man closes these gates so I can send help when it isn't needed!"

Morrowind was smart, and included political houses, religious Ashlanders, and divine mortal Gods, all threading together to stop Dagoth's Ur plan. Not just some old guy without a shirt telling a prisoner to get strong and go stab guy with sharp object.

Moving away from the main quest, you mentioned in-game lore. Yes, there is a abundance of lore, but you'd get the same experience from reading a book. In fact, most of the lore is from in-game books. While this is a plausible form of knowledge, nobody but hard-core fans or story-loving players will actually look for it. It seems like you're asking a cat to find a bone, when it really just wants to paw at a mouse. Oblivion shouldn't force it's players to run around looking for things to tell them the story, when it should be delivered through characters and experience through questing and NPCs.

You also mentioned that Fast travel is for people who fit the "Cat paw mouse" criteria. I've known quite a few people who didn't like fast travel, but still got bored and quit when the same cave had the same 5 bandits as the last one. Sure, you can skip fast traveling, but when there's barely any uniqueness to caves and ruins, why bother? You walk into one cave, you've seen them all. Even the one or two exceptions really don't support the fact that's it's repetitive and boring. While some people may enjoy finding a gold nugget in the puddle of feces, most people would prefer to reach their hand into a fresh water puddle, and find either a gold nugget, diamond, artifact, et cetera. Figuratively speaking, of course.

It seems like you're just trying to defend the "Good" aspects of the game and act like they make the game, and take a few "Bad" aspects and try to like them. I'm not saying you shouldn't like Oblivion, but in my opinion, it's forgettable compared to Morrowind.

I found Oblivion a good game. I played it for over 1000 hours. Thats value for money.
But (theres always a but ) after MW I felt it was disappointing.
Some mechanics were better (eg the way stolen goods were d/w), some were worse (eg the leveled loot). That doesn't really matter. Poor mechanics can ruin a game but even great mechanics can't by themself make a game great. The MQ story was uninteresting, the background was less varied and original, my desire to replay it even heavily modded is low.

Well, first of all, thanks for that great opening text Saint_Jiub; it was nice to read.

If I would prefer Oblivion over Morrowind (which I don't) or just love Oblivion while not knowing Morrowind, I too would get annoyed by the amount of Oblivion bashing.

But I can't deny that Oblivion felt like a disappointment to me. The reason wasn't solely because of the mechanical changes, which of course still played a big role in me not loving that game. The reason was actually because for me (!!!) Oblivion did not capture the spirit that I felt while playing Morrowind. I wasn't waiting for a prettier, bigger or polished Morrowind and I expected changes in many aspects but I was hoping for the same feeling while playing which Oblivion unfortunately did not provide.

Here is my reason why Oblivion was disappointing to me. It is my own opinion, totally subjective and it isn't meant to bash Oblivion by any means.

Morrowind was all about “my pace” while Oblivion constantly gave you the feeling that you have to do something, otherwise the world will end. As a game player you did not have to do a Quest immediately but as a role player, when someone tells you, a task is from utter importance, you will most likely do it as fast as possible.
This maybe made Oblivion's quests more interesting and more exciting because you had constantly the feeling the world is depending on you and you alone, but it took away the relaxing atmosphere I loved in Morrowind (where ironically the world was depending on you alone). I couldn't enjoy my surroundings and I didn't really feel like exploring because there was that ultimate threat pushing you from behind. It was thrilling, granted, but that wasn't what I was looking for in the successor of my all-time-favorite.
And the changes in Oblivion's mechanics seemed to underline this feeling. Instant fast travel, quest marker, minigames, new combat system, level scaling; all of these aren't bad changes but all of them kind of made Oblivion “fast paced” instead of “my paced”. I wouldn't have mind them if the spirit stayed the same.

This basically describes my feelings for Oblivion. It still is a great and polished game but it did not enchant me and I could not live Oblivion like I lived Morrowind.

Oblivion isn't an action game. But, ever since Morrowind, the games have been going closer and closer to those action games that call themselves RPG's because they let you choose some stats in the begining. Oblivion took the biggest leap, and gets hate becaue of that.

Oblviion, as Bethesda have even told us, was created to the mainstream crowd, to pull in more fans. If Bethesda can admit to this, why can't you?

And whenever Oblivion gets bashed, so does Morrowind. Sometimes a thread is full of Morrowind bashing. I've lost count of how many times I've had to tell people you're supposed to use weapons you're skilled in...

Morrowind is supposedly more of an action game than daggerfall but lets not talk about that morrowind needs a break and hopefully we will leave morrowind and oblivion behind and play tes v and be amazed and finally end the big flame war.

I love both games. Morrowind was my introduction into the series in 2001 and I was absolutely blown away. Never before had I played something so engaging to the player before. Every aspect of Morrowind blew my mind.

I was also floored with Oblivion when I got it on launch day back in 2006. While I do prefer Morrowind, Oblivion is still a great game.

With the improvements over Oblivion in Fallout 3, I believe I have nothing to worry about for TESV.

Bethesda is one of the greatest companies in the world. I love the games, the community, the respect the developers give to their fans. Everything. Hell, Bethesda is the only company that I know of to provide a tool that can manipulate every aspect of the game world: The Construction Set. How cool is that?

I dislike Oblivion so much because it doesn't feel like an RPG, it feels like a hack'n'slash adventure game. Two very different styles/genres, yet Oblivion fits into it exactly.

Yes,I often think im playing fable 2!
No,those stats believe it or not have an effect on gameplay.
Try killing a high level lich with a blade skill of 15,lets see who dies first.