If anything the new spell system should resemble the old (all the way back to arena) but I strongly agree that there could be some significant improvements (not because i think OB was crap, but because its the next gen and it should feel new) and I'd like to see it reworked from the ground up. to me the most important thing is game play mechanics and rules: if its fun then ill play; if its real then who cares, unless its fun. If its has pretty graphics; then good, but if i just wanted a show, id go watch a movie.

I'd like the spell making system to be a part of the character menu instead of a Mages guild perk. instead of buying spells, you buy spell effects, then make spells on the fly (in the heat of battle). A little like how Morrowind's enchanting was possible anywhere. This would alleviate the huge list of nearly identical spells that many ppl complain about as you could only have as many spells in the list as there are spell effects in the game. (I just started naming my spells fire1 fire2 fire3 etc, as i leveled up and made better spells. not pretty, no immersion. but anything else could mean I have fire1 at the end of the list and fire 2 at the start and who knows where fire 3 went, oh there it is next to that useless healing spell that I only used once, now what was I doing? oh right, a Deadroth.... what was I going to do about him? oh right, fire 3... where is that spell?)

Why cant we have constant effect spells? alteration and restoration and conjuration are good candidates for this. It could easily be balanced by a constant drain on MP. CE feather (this would directly affect your combat ability since you don't have as much MP instead of just cluttering the top corner of your HUD) CE water breath (now having water breathing doesn't mean u can't die in water, it just means you wont die until you run out of MP instead of constantly recasting the spell) CE buff attributes ( useless fortify luck 15 sec spells would be gone. instead, maybe Fortify luck 1.2x for .5x MP regen), CE summon companions (Imp familiar anyone?)

Also extra effects for spells would be an easy and effective improvement. I don't mean effects like levitate (tho I always wondered why there isn't a Star Wars style "push" spell, there is telekinesis AND knockdown effects already after all). I mean effects like magnitude, area, duration, touch, target and self. Area effects could have shapes. I want to make fire spells that spew out like a flame thrower! instead of just being limited to fireballs. Shock spells that jump between characters (Friendly Fire!). Giant snow balls falling from the sky like snowy death! (just a suggestion)

Also there's some real world physics concepts that shouldn't be ignored. (well then again only if it adds fun, so feel free to criticize this paragraph) things like Faraday's concepts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage. So the enemies armor DOES affect your spells. Maybe if they have conducting metal, your shock spells wrap around them and only their armor takes damage ( eventually arch welding their joints together, or melting it, causing heat damage?) Fur could catch fire, but protect from cold. Glass, iron, steel could melt at high enough temps. Cold could make some materials brittle. this sort of rock-paper-scissor game play is the fundamental reason for having different armor types in the first place, but more importantly, it presents a decision to the player that has real consequences. rather than "I like this armor type because I like the way glass armor looks." and it alleviates the problem many players have with "i don't want to be forced to use glass or deadric if i want good armor" I could go on to how some armors are better against some weapons/ situations, but this is a magic thread and those arguments have little to do with magic...

I always wondered why many spells have ball effects like destruction spells. why cant "magic" damage just be instantaneous, with no ball effect at all. like a DnD smite spell that happens inexplicably. Pick a target and zap, no dodging, no mercy. Balance it with more MP/DMG. mysticism, alteration...

What skill do the mages at the Mages Guild have, that I (as a mages guild member (leader even)) cant learn? why cant I enchant my own stuff? Why can't I enchant my own stuff as well as some no-name enchanter that leaves his prized sword (with like a grand-grand soul gem) in chest in a pit of goblins? I know Bilbo found the Ring of Power in an lowly orc cave in the middle of nowhere (not even in a proper chest), but there was a lot of story to explain that. I dont expect to be able to be the most powerful figure in history, but the most powerful person in the province... maybe. and if I find all this random loot that I cant make, it ruins the dream.

I think alchemy should be more powerful and more gradual. you don't pop an aspirin and immediately forget your headache (if you do, i recommend switching to placebos) Poisons should have crippling pain and multiple effects. health drain, health damage, vomiting, spasms, blurred vision, paralyzes, hallucinations (o.0) dizziness, blackouts instead of just collapsing on the ground after chasing someone half way across the forest. as for making potions, its not ideal, but its fun. so I'm not opposed to leaving that system more or less as it is or reworking it from the bottom. tho i will say, id rather new even if its crap because otherwise I might as well go back to Daggerfall than buy a new game. And if its crap, then at least there's the rest of the game to tinker with.

Other ideas I have wouldn't fit the TES game style, but should be made mod-able. I have always wanted to do away with the fatigue/mp system. Its archaic. I think fatigue and mp should be the same stat. MP was made in the 80s (70s even maybe? idk) because fatigue wasn't a concept yet (maybe it was, but how would you implement it in something like Final Fantasy or DnD?) and it was unbalancing for a mage to spew powerful spells all day. You shouldn't be able to cast spells till your exhausted and then close and start fighting like you just finished resting while your MP regenerates. There are other stats that could fit there... so I don't think that things like derived attributes should be hard coded. I'm not a big modder, so I don't know what was possible in the older games, but i think the developers should keep their mind open for any major game changing mods and not cut them off.

Finally a futile plea for the old. PLEASE BRING BACK DAGGERFALL STYLE ENCHANTING AND CHARACTER CREATION. I like balancing my own negative effects and negative effects on soul gems is so interesting. I would spend hours hunting new creatures just to see what their souls did. Astrological signs is meh. If your worried about balance, then play OB with the diff slider on easy and see how fun (or boring) it is. Then go play Daggerfall with custom 'birth signs' and try to make it boring. You will have fun TRYING to make it boring. And there's been easy ways to console cheat from the beginning, so why worry so much about balance when people tend to balance themselves.

These changes are suggestions at best and I don't really expect anything like them to appear in TES V or even TES VI (if it ever is (in my lifetime)) but these are the KIND of changes i would like to see rather than more focus on graphics or voice acting or animations (which ARE fun but not a priority IMHO). games have been improving graphics since they were invented, but somewhere along the line mechanics took a back seat. we still use mp/hp. we are only now worrying about physics. we still cant make custom combat combos, no one has even considered magic user combat combos. we can't forge new weapons in-game (I mean make new meshes, textures, bitmaps in-game and use new user created weapons, not "bring these materials for a sword like 'this'" (sounds unbalanced, but it wouldn't be if we had REAL physics) if anyone wants to know what I think combat should be like then play dwarf fortress. Swords don't have a damage and durability stat. They have things like shear and tensile strength, weight, volume. These determine how they handle in combat. Creatures dont have HP, they have size and limbs and organs(!). limbs can be lopped off, but it doesn't mean the fight is over necessarily, especially if the mob ignores pain. bleeding on every cut. organ damage. Ever heard of a bronze colossus? sounds tough? it is, but not for the lucky lucky fluffy wambler. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=56935.0

The only other first-person fantasy game to compare with I can think of is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. That game had the same three basic forms of elemental magic - ice, lightning & fire, but in that game a fireball was big, took time to form between the caster's hands and did massive damage on impact. Same went for lightning.

Most recently though, the spell system of Two Worlds 2 is pretty interesting since there's basically endless possibilities to combine spell effects. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2ddAM2QwY

I would like it if when you used magic there is always a chance spells could back fire at lower levels (of magic).
e.g. If I used a flamethrower spell that was way beyond my destruction level then would likely burn myself, or sometimes it just fails, and sometimes it works for a second or two then, BOOM, hand explodes. Or how about If I use a high level invsibility spell at low illusion levels I instead become more noticable. Or how about I get a static electric shock from a lightning spell way beyond my destruction skill, or a healing spell damages me. But I also want a chance for a failed spell aswell.

Revamp it.
Make it so you have a few spells and you learn more, not buy them all.
Make it more like WoW with skills trees, I hate wow, but it's a good idea.

Two Worlds may have been terrible, but it did have some cool spell effects etc. Id like to see something like that.

I like how Magic was in Oblivion but one main thing I would change is being able to Delete Weak Spells when they are no longer useful. Nobody is going to want to use a Flare Spell at Level 20 unless your using the spell to trigger a trap or to tell the enemy hey I'm over here I don't feel like walking over to your location.

Agree, have to have the ability to delete spells.

I don't want to change based on my skill as a mage. I think that's silly, personally.

We should be able to learn spells from books and quests instead of having to track down a mages guild instructor who doesn't have a storefront or even regular hours. Don't make me fight the clock to learn magic.

yes it really needs improvement, look at what a baldurs gate 2 mage could do , now thats powerful.

also the animations need a vast improvement and added variety

and tehre should be more variety of spells and complex versions of simple ones.

and high level necromancers should be able to raise an army of the dead and resurrect fallen enemies.

It needs more spells effects? What other game has so many spell effects, please?

I like the way magic generally works, by game mechanics, as it is, but I do hope for more varied animations with more powerful animations being linked to more powerful spells.

I also hope conjuration works better this time, so that enemies would always attack your summoned creatures. It would also be great if you could summon more than just one creature at a time, even if it has to be a different type, like in Morrowind.

The "high-level" summons in Oblivion, such as the Lich and Xivilai, were quite useless IMO, and even weaker than some summons such as the Storm Atronach.

I agree. Magic could really use some improvement.
Especially the 'shoot ball in straight direction' part. There really needs to be more ways to use magic. From charged area attacks that don't require a thrown missile (just selecting a location while you charge the spell). Spells that try to hone in on targets (not ridiculously, but a small degree of turning), casts that arc rather than go in a straight line, or spells that bounce on the ground or off walls. Conjuring magical or physical barriers, and I would really like to see some realistic use of non-direct damage spells (be it damage over time or spells that cripple the opponents ability to fight).

All of it! Too many "one click" spells that replaced entire skills, bad spellmaking, bad enchanting. And where are the upkeep spells? I'd love to see "upkeep", as in you lose X amount of mana from your total, for things like summons that don't have a time limit, weapon enchantments, other cool stuff.

More options for spell effects would be nice -- cones, chains, blasts, traps, seeking bolts, MIRVs, magic grenades, whatever. I also hope they add special advantages/disadvantages. Like, requiring a focus item, or only working at night, or having a chance to go haywire and hurt you would be disadvantages, which could balance out some additional power for the spell.

It would be nice if they manage to get the benefits of magicka regeneration without the drawbacks. Maybe have a long term resource for buffs, conjurations, and powerful combat spells. It could be used to create attack spells too, but then the spell could have its own regenerating charge, like an enchanted object.

I do hope there are some spells that are more actiony. Like, "Shield" causes your character to actively put his hand out to maintain a magical barrier, which could then be enhanced with elemental resistances or elemental damage or weapon degrading and so on.

Here are a couple things about the magic system I'd like changed:

• Allow telekinesis to do damage. The heavier the object, the more damage it does and the more magicka is costs to pick it up.
  
• Balance alchemy so it's not so much of a money-making skill. I believe empty bottles should be used to create potions. When you use a potion, the bottle remains in your inventory.

I think functionality should be overhauled as well. The variety and power of magic was bunk in oblivion. Not to mention the cluttered spellbooks

I might add to this later - I know I mentioned this before in an older suggestion thread.

Nothing cheapens the idea of arcane arts and secret powers more than buying spells.

Have them be learned. What about class based powers?

Some natural learning through expirimentation makes sense, but I think others should be "Learned" taught by other mages, with spellmaking reserved for only VERY high levels of mastery and even then only inclusive of mastered skills.

DO NOT WANT. Is TES not DnD.



This is a great idea. I like the idea of stumbling on the best things in the middle of a dungeon. why should spell be different.

Well we don't even know if there will be classes in Skyrim - they may do away with them altogether. It seemed that with Oblivion the classes really only served to define the NPCs (you meet say a spellsword out in colovia - he may not be named that but he was defined by that). Most I presume made their own classes.

But class based spells was not what I was getting at like in DnD or NWN ... no I mean like what this mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35300 offers which are small perks depending upon class and even lets you customize if you choose custom class.

And it is not that far from DnD anyway (Oblivion that is) in that instead of class powers you get birthsign powers. I think one flaw of Oblivion was not thinking through the promise of "go anywhere, do anything." Without restrictions on learning any spell or weapon or joining any faction one had only choices and no consequences. That is deathly to an RPG attitude and playstyle. "Hi I'm Geoff head of the fighters guild and the dark brotherhood a master of all restoration magic and a master at mercantile - oh btw I saved the world too." This combined with level scaling meant go anywhere do everything always.

Adding in consequences would be ideal. Especially in magic. Another mod that is not fully developed but has promise is http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31918 which instead of adding new spells or overhauling spell stats used the major magic overhauls (LAME, SM, Midas, Fearsome) and then overhauled how you accessed the spells (disabled the spell buy button and then assigned spells based on stats). It does use a class system separate from the normal class system and put in place consequences. So if you specialize in Heavy Armor - then you cannot take a class in certain magic classes.

But even something less stringent such as (and we are just guessing here how it will be set up) if specializing in skill A then a hard cap on Skill B or if Skill A+B then no access to Skill Z. Whatever - even if you get to customize what gets excluded. There is a pattern to the schools of magic and how they are paired that could delineate this.

Go anywhere and do anything is great - but not all at once and always. Go anywhere and do anything depending on choices and consequences is, to me, the heart of RPG.

Now what I'd like to see is what finger on the mountain was like (and much of the rest of what Oblivion was not) which is a quest to get a power/spell. Go visit a remote teacher, adhere to a vow, do a service, defeat a foe, research (a reason to read the books).

Buying spells though? No that is a cop out to RPG - discount spells ... groan. How to turn magic and mystery into a trip to Wallmart.

[edit] really though until more announcements - our suggestions are going to be shots in the dark.

I'd like to see magic that isn't actually visible.

As Peter Jackson said when making Lord Of The Rings, the magic of the truly powerful wizards like Gandalf should be subtle. I don't like when it's portrayed as some guy shooting lightning out of his fingers. I'd like if there were spells to throw your enemies across the floor, without any fancy fire or lightning effects.

The magic system was something I spent a lot of time thinking about back in Oblivion. Fundamentally the "create your own magic" system was sound, what it needed to be more immersive were new variables; a big problem for example was all spells could be spammed and took no time to cast which made it a little boring. I'd propose simply adding 2 or 3 new variables to the existing ones:

Cast time: This'd work as another mana cost determination factor besides magnitude. Obviously longer cast times = lower mana cost. This'd justify allowing much more powerful spells since the player can't *spam* the spell, it also gives more time for some kind of impressive casting visuals. It'd also allow balancing of self buffs in tandem with the next suggestion since a restoration professional could cast a reasonably strong buff on himself out of combat that may take several seconds to complete.
Cooldown: Again another mana cost determination factor. Most games with skill systems have spells or abilities that are very powerful but also have very long cooldowns (If the spell were spmmable it'd be overpowered); a sort've "Oh crap!" button for when they need the extra power, but shouldn't be used in every encounter.
Ally/Hostile/PBAoEp: A BIG problem in oblivion is AoE spells were indiscriminate which led to big problems when playing with AI characters; often a hostile spell would injure friends as well as foes, or buff/healling spells aimed at your party members would end up healling the enemy. There REALLY need to be some kind of friend/foe recognition in spellcasting in the next TES to make it possible to play a party support character. It'd also be nice if we can have point-blank AoE spells that effect both caster and nearby characters, effectively an on-self buff that buffs both you AND nearby allies with a single spell. No "spell you, spell for me" (which cluttersthe spellbook fast if you try play a support character)

Finally, I'd suggest a limited size spellbook. This'd stop players making 50 copies of a long cooldown spell and cycling through them in a fight. Instead a player might have a varied selection of spells including self buffs and spam attacks, or they could opt to create a series of semi-duplicate "high yield, long cooldown" spells that they'd call upon at regular intervals, but not often and sacrifce spellcasting flexibility in doing so. Alternatively some kind of global cooldown could be employed, so casting a high power spell with a cooldown artached would exghuast the caster and prevent him casting ANY more spells for the chosen period.

Fundamentally being able to design your own spells was awesome and is something they should definatly hold over,but it could use a bit of expanding upon.

I think everyone who uses magic would agree, we need magic that effects the environment, a blizzard, meteor lightning from the sky instead of your hand, strong winds...the possibilities can go on and on. Just look at Naruto and you can get lots of ideas, not saying make it like Naruto, just how saying the have lots of "jutsu" or "magic" that effect the environments. Of course it shouldn't make lands into wastelands, at least not permanently. (once again you can't have absolute realism in games like this) However PLEASE do not make it like Fable where you have will scars or in fable 3 where your body glows with weird runes. That I find unnecessary and unappealing.