[April]

I'm not using any horse mods at all. I just escorted Martin and Jaufrey to Cloud Ruler Temple, the three of us all on horse back.

You should have heard us. We sounded like we were killing the horses with all the whinnying going on. I mean, the horses would constantly cry out, at least once per second, with all that uphill travel to into the Jerrals to Cloud Ruler.

Your fix would work for my horse, but I'd have to do it to every horse I meet. What I'd rather do is just take horses out of the equation. Is there a way to make all horses exempt from RF while still using the mod?

There is currently no mechanism for excluding any creatures from the affects of RF. I might include an optional "horse fixer" in the next version of RF that boosts their fatigue and correctly implements encumbrance for them...

The reason it sounded like you were killing them is you almost were If you had just walked your horses for a bit, every time they started to whinny, they would have quickly recovered in about 30 seconds and you could have galloped again without stumbling. Riding horses hard uphill is unsustainable in reality... you need to give them a bit of a rest every now and again.

[Kayla Bee]

Delte, have you tried the Mount&Blade style horseriding? To strip it down, it changes horse speed of "Stop - > Walk -> Run" to "Stop -> Walk Slowly, all the way up to a fast gallop"
It also seems to interface with RF perfectly - ABO did some fine work there. Well worth it. I'm looking for a link now

http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8962
There it be
Fantastic mod.

[ANaIs GRelot]

When I tried that mod, I can't make my horse gallop. It just acts as if it's constantly against a wall or something. I did keep the .esp for magic on horseback, though. Aiming spells seems to be a bit off, though, so I always miss...

[CHangohh BOyy]

I've had that, I've no idea why, or how it fixes itself, but it is really annoying when it happens.
The spellcasting is great, though - especially casting spells on your horse

[Flutterby]

I just installed the newer version of Real Sleep Extended. Will be taking it for a test drive shortly.

I am planning to advance a bit upon the effectiveness of sleep, and start checking whether you sleep in a bed, a bedroll or on an altar - and giving full effect only to the first (adjustable in the ini of course), and with an OBMM script for simpler choices. Not a big change though.

But...I've got a thought for you, TheNiceOne.

I was looking at the work you did for the various timescales depending on which activity a character does. Interior has one timescale. Exterior has another. Sneaking has it's own timescale.

One exceptional mod would be to take that idea and apply it to (1) interacting with merchants while bartering or conducting business transactions, and (2) while doing things like Alchemy or Armor smithing.

I've always felt that a character shouldn't be able to take is alchemy tools around with him. I think immersion is better served if brewing potions and such could only be done at a stationary location, such as an alchemy station in a dungeon or Mage's Guild, or a place the player sets up for his own personal workspace. It would make owning a home important--because the character would have to return there to brew his potions.

The same goes for armor and weapon repair. I suppose there's some repairs a character could do "in the field", like carrying a whetstone to sharpen a blade dulled in combat. But, major repairs should be handled at a smith. Or, the character with Armory skill should have to use a stationary smithy, equipped with all the tools.

Plus, these activities of brewing potions and fixing one's gear should take a long time--maybe days, but certainly hours.

Therefore, when I saw your timescale work, it got me to thinking...why not apply the same type of control when a character makes potions or fixes gear?

Would you be interested in adding that to your mod...or making a separate mod with that type of control?

Let me see, if I understand you correctly, the first thing you're asking for is that Alchemy and weapon repair should be restricted to certain locations. That is viable - I think I know how to disable the two menus unless certain checks are fulfilled, the difficulty would be to restrict it to only some kind of weapon repair, or how to restrict it to only some locations. It would be possible to add two new furniture types for sale, which when bought, allows you to do alchemy/weapon repair when activated. However, to do this well, I would need to add the new furnitures to the houses as well, and so far I have done scripting only - not any house modding. And unfortunately, my time is a very limiting factor (with full job and two lovely girls).

As for timing issue, it will be quite easy to advance the time when you have the alchemy or repair menus open. The easiest will be to advance the time with a factor that is dependant on how long the menus are open. More realistic, but also more difficult (I think), is to keep track of the number of potions brewed or repairs made, and then advance the time dependant on those numbers. I will try to look into that.

[Hearts]

I am planning to advance a bit upon the effectiveness of sleep, and start checking whether you sleep in a bed, a bedroll or on an altar - and giving full effect only to the first (adjustable in the ini of course), and with an OBMM script for simpler choices. Not a big change though.

Shouldn't the altar completely heal a character and make him completely rested too? The power of the gods, magic, faith, and all that?

Let me see, if I understand you correctly, the first thing you're asking for is that Alchemy and weapon repair should be restricted to certain locations.

I'm having second thoughts on the weapon/armor repair. It seems that a "repair hammer" could represent lots of little things that a person could carry with him where ever he goes: A whetstone, leather straps, needle, small repair hammer to bang out dents, etc.

So, maybe those could be done in the field, especially by someone that knows what they're doing. Plus, without armor repair, the game destroys armor, and weapons degrade, unrealiticaly fast. So, I'd say leave armor/weapon repair alone.

If we change anything about armor/weapon repair, it should be the time it takes to do it. It should take a while--not something that a player should be able to do instantaneously after every fight.

Armor/weapon repair, in my opinion, should still be possile in the field--it just should require a significant amount of time to perform.





Potions, well, that's much harder to justify creating in the field. If you're actually brewing the things, as the sound effect suggests, then, yes, they need to be tied to a location. Even if you're just mixing some ingredients into some water and stirring, powdered-chocolate-milk style, you still need some empty bottles, which would be impractical to carry around.

Note that changing potion brewing to stagnant locations (as I think should be done) will change an entire dynamic about the game. No longer will a player be able to carry just the ingredients (because they're lighter that way) and pop together a quick potion when he needs it. Players will have to plan ahead on what type of potions they'll need.

Let's not forget the At Home Alchemy Mod, either, which is linked in Post #2.

[herrade]

Just dropped by to read up a little on the thread and something reminded me that one of my mods might actually be interesting to you Delte.

My update to Thingamajigs Broken Armor mod, you tested his original way back and thought the "getting naked" part was breaking immersion. This is what I fixed, NPCs will recieve a random clothing apparell and the player will equip clothing in his inventory or a randomly added one if he doesn't have any clothing on him.

Unfortunately I still haven't added the ability to choose what clothing your character equips, which means that if you carry more than one type of shirt, you don't know which one your character will equip.


I'm very impressed to hear about how Realistic Fatigue is working nowadays! Wonderful story Delte, and great job ABO!

As for repairing taking time, I know at least two menutime mods have been discussed here on the thread earlier, http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4584 for example. You were using one of them back then Delte. Have you forgotten about that or did you find something wrong with them?

[Tyler F]

There is currently no mechanism for excluding any creatures from the affects of RF. I might include an optional "horse fixer" in the next version of RF that boosts their fatigue and correctly implements encumbrance for them...

For the time being I've increased my horses fatigue to 600, it sounds like a lot but its 200 below the guar in fcom. I found this amount to work quite well, for example the trip to skingrad from the IC stresses the horse if not rested even with that amount of fatigue and it will start stumbling, which is good. I thought 600 might be over the top and was going to start from there and lower it but it does seem reasonable. With Oblivions 50 fatigue setting, the horse starts complaining as soon as the ground has even a gentle slope.

[des lynam]

For the time being I've increased my horses fatigue to 600, it sounds like a lot but its 200 below the guar in fcom. I found this amount to work quite well, for example the trip to skingrad from the IC stresses the horse if not rested even with that amount of fatigue and it will start stumbling, which is good. I thought 600 might be over the top and was going to start from there and lower it but it does seem reasonable. With Oblivions 50 fatigue setting, the horse starts complaining as soon as the ground has even a gentle slope.

Thanks for that info... I'll keep that in mind when I add "horse fatigue/encumbrance fixer" functionality. I'm not yet sure if I should embed this into RF, or make it a separate mod.

Has anyone encountered any evidence of any mods ever adding encumbrance to horses? Do any of the armour or saddlebags mods do this? Are there any "better horses" mods that makes their fatigue/encumbrance characteristics more realistic? Is anyone working on any sort of saddlebag mods that I could help out on to provide this?

[David Chambers]

Just dropped by to read up a little on the thread and something reminded me that one of my mods might actually be interesting to you Delte.

I'll give it a shot down the road, Dugge (I'm trying mods slowly, making sure I understand each one before I move on).

Gotta link for it?

As for repairing taking time, I know at least two menutime mods have been discussed here on the thread earlier, http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4584 for example. You were using one of them back then Delte. Have you forgotten about that or did you find something wrong with them?

I haven't forgotten. And, I still have one of them--he one I used. It's just this: I was impressed with TheNiceOne's addition of changing timescale based on what you do that he included in his Real Sleep update. Those other mods changed timescale, but always changed it to the same thing, iirc.

I like the idea of having, say, a conversation with an NPC take a certain amount of time while buying something from a vendor takes a different amount of time.

I thought we could apply that to making potions, repairing armor, and whatnot.

For the time being I've increased my horses fatigue to 600, it sounds like a lot but its 200 below the guar in fcom. I found this amount to work quite well, for example the trip to skingrad from the IC stresses the horse if not rested even with that amount of fatigue and it will start stumbling, which is good. I thought 600 might be over the top and was going to start from there and lower it but it does seem reasonable. With Oblivions 50 fatigue setting, the horse starts complaining as soon as the ground has even a gentle slope.

I'll have to do this too. This definitely needs to be fixed. It's a real problem with RF. The stumbles and falls and whinning from the horse is way too much and unrealistic (for the fantasy setting).

Thanks for that info... I'll keep that in mind when I add "horse fatigue/encumbrance fixer" functionality. I'm not yet sure if I should embed this into RF, or make it a separate mod.

I'd say make it an option in RF. I can't imagine no one not wanting to use it, because I look upon the problem as an RF bug. If you don't incorporate it in the mod, then at least bundle it with the download.

As for other aspects of RF, I'm quite impressed. I haven't changed a single default setting yet. I'm very impressed with all other aspects of the mod. Kudos! :thumbsup:

Has anyone encountered any evidence of any mods ever adding encumbrance to horses? Do any of the armour or saddlebags mods do this?

The saddlebag mod I used to use waaaaayyyy back (before I used OOO, even, back when I was using Francisco's mod) would, indeed, slow the horse down the more weight you put in its inventory. So, the more you carried, the slower the horse would go.

It was a bit unnatural, this slowing down. I think the horse's speed was affected based on the weight in the inventory. And, different types of horses had different thresholds.



You what would be interesting....

If you assigned a range to a type of horse. The types would still be rated accordingly (a paint horse wouldn't have as much fatigue as a black), but, in assigning the range, each horse the player rides will be different.

For example, let's say paint horses were given a range of 400-600. When the player rides the horse for the first time, a random number is generated within that range which becomes that horse's Fatigue.

So, Ryse gets on Old Paint, and it's fatigue becomes 532. Forever, locked in the game, that horse has a max fatigue of 532.

Then, Ryse gets on Prior Mabel's Paint horse. Again, the number is randomized since this is the first time that Ryse has gotten into the saddle on that particular horse, and Mabel's horse has a max fatigue of 427. As Ryse rides Mabel's horse, he may notice that THAT particular horse doesn't have the get-up-and-go that his other paint horse has.

This may be making things too complicated. And, I'm really just brainstorming and thinking out loud. But, it's some neat ideas, yes?

[DAVId Bryant]

I'll have to do this too. This definitely needs to be fixed. It's a real problem with RF. The stumbles and falls and whinning from the horse is way too much and unrealistic (for the fantasy setting).

I'd say make it an option in RF. I can't imagine no one not wanting to use it, because I look upon the problem as an RF bug. If you don't incorporate it in the mod, then at least bundle it with the download.

I tend not to think of it as an RF bug, but an Oblivion bug... horses shouldn't have that ridiculously low fatigue... they shouldnt be that easy to punch out or fatigue drain to a halt either. However, it is true that RF does highlight this problem.

As for other aspects of RF, I'm quite impressed. I haven't changed a single default setting yet. I'm very impressed with all other aspects of the mod. Kudos! :thumbsup:

Thanks... I'm just working on a new version with a few fixes based on other peoples feedback right now.

The saddlebag mod I used to use waaaaayyyy back (before I used OOO, even, back when I was using Francisco's mod) would, indeed, slow the horse down the more weight you put in its inventory. So, the more you carried, the slower the horse would go.

It was a bit unnatural, this slowing down. I think the horse's speed was affected based on the weight in the inventory. And, different types of horses had different thresholds.

I doubt this was done using encumbrance... encumbrance doesn't affect movement speeds at all (stupidly enough), only equipped items and burden/feather spells affect movement speeds. So a quick cheat to run faster is to un-equip everything and just carry it instead. More likely this was done by modifying the horse's speed attribute.

If you assigned a range to a type of horse. The types would still be rated accordingly (a paint horse wouldn't have as much fatigue as a black), but, in assigning the range, each horse the player rides will be different.

Hmm... I'll think about that. First step is to make their fatigue reasonable... randomising etc is something extra.

[Ross Thomas]

...I doubt this was done using encumbrance... encumbrance doesn't affect movement speeds at all (stupidly enough), only equipped items and burden/feather spells affect movement speeds. So a quick cheat to run faster is to un-equip everything and just carry it instead. More likely this was done by modifying the horse's speed attribute...

re: horse speed with MD's saddlebag
all of MD's saddlebag version (up to the current 3.0) directly modify the speed of horses depending on their carried weight.

i've always thought the horses' walk speeds were terribly slow enough already - that riding them was a penalty to the player.
that's why i created Horse speed equals player speed mod: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8805

Increases the player's ridden horse's base speed to 110% of the player's base speed.
Riding the horse at its walk speed is now beneficial to the player - rather than a penalty as is the case with unmodded game.
Gallop speeds are not affected. Unlike the horses' original walk speed, their original gallop speed seems correct. So this speed-change is not applied when the horse is at a run.

the small saddlebag in MD saddlebags 3.0 didn't have the carried weight to speed penalty on horses. (i think he commented them out in the code prior to release.)
my mod works with this saddlebag.
but the large saddlebag have the carried weight to speed penalty. (i think he forgot to comment this out.)
so my mod can't change the horses speed with this saddle bag.

this doesn't "fix" oblivion's low fatigue bug on horses, however.
but the horses travel a distance before getting fatigued that seemed appropriate for me.
also note that i use the default timescale (30) outdoors - so my distance over time is smaller than other with a small timescale.

[Alexandra Ryan]

If you assigned a range to a type of horse. The types would still be rated accordingly (a paint horse wouldn't have as much fatigue as a black), but, in assigning the range, each horse the player rides will be different.

That... Would be awesome.

[Peter lopez]

I'll give it a shot down the road, Dugge (I'm trying mods slowly, making sure I understand each one before I move on).

Gotta link for it?

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14764

I haven't forgotten. And, I still have one of them--he one I used. It's just this: I was impressed with TheNiceOne's addition of changing timescale based on what you do that he included in his Real Sleep update. Those other mods changed timescale, but always changed it to the same thing, iirc.

I like the idea of having, say, a conversation with an NPC take a certain amount of time while buying something from a vendor takes a different amount of time.

I thought we could apply that to making potions, repairing armor, and whatnot.

Well, Menu Time by Valik, the mod I linked to earlier, does have different times for different menus It's just four categories though, I know I began with expanding the number of menus for this, but I don't know how far I got. Anyway, you should check the readme for Menu Time, unless the mod you have is Happyhannahs Timewasting, which does not differentiate between menus.

You what would be interesting....

If you assigned a range to a type of horse. The types would still be rated accordingly (a paint horse wouldn't have as much fatigue as a black), but, in assigning the range, each horse the player rides will be different.

For example, let's say paint horses were given a range of 400-600. When the player rides the horse for the first time, a random number is generated within that range which becomes that horse's Fatigue.

So, Ryse gets on Old Paint, and it's fatigue becomes 532. Forever, locked in the game, that horse has a max fatigue of 532.

Then, Ryse gets on Prior Mabel's Paint horse. Again, the number is randomized since this is the first time that Ryse has gotten into the saddle on that particular horse, and Mabel's horse has a max fatigue of 427. As Ryse rides Mabel's horse, he may notice that THAT particular horse doesn't have the get-up-and-go that his other paint horse has.

This may be making things too complicated. And, I'm really just brainstorming and thinking out loud. But, it's some neat ideas, yes?

I like this idea, maybe the different horse "types" would have different fatigue levels as well. What if the black horse, being the fastest horse around, actually has a little lower fatigue? Kind of like a cheetah. While the slowest one (don't remember which one that is) has a massive amount of fatigue, being more of a strong and tough working horse than a racing horse?
Of course each "type" of horse would have their own max and min values, so every horse will be different.

If no one figures out how to do it MMM should have some clues on how to dynamically change attributes for specific actors, unless it already does this for horses as well as the other creatures? ^_^

[Frank Firefly]

I recently released a disguise mod that allows the player to disguise themselves as a member of the Imperial Legion. I know it sounds like this has been done to death, but this mod is quite different from any other releases out there. Another feature is being able to forge your bounty to try and remove it.
When I started making it I hoped that it would be seen and used as an Immersion mod. I can think of no better place to introduce this mod to the world of Immersion than Delte's thread: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=988946

[willow]

Hi, great thread!
I have just started playing again and this thread has been very usefull.
Just a couple of quastions; I?m not happy with the vanillia magick system and so I wonder if I should replace it with Supreme Magica or L.A.M.E? Which one is better?
Also I wonder if anyone knows some good horse mods? When I played before I used Alienslofs mods but made the mistake of deleting them when I had to reinstall.

And once again, Great Thread!

[Arrogant SId]

Neither is "better", they're both fantastic, and you can use them both at the same time
Just read the readmes to see which you like the philosophy of more, and load that after the other.

[Carlos Vazquez]

Horses: a "Fatigue Range" on the horses would be rather cool, but, having some outward sign of if the horse is "any good" or not would be nice. Something similar to "looking a gift horse in the mouth."... A reasonable horseman can make a pretty accurate estimate of a horses capabilitys.. although, there is no 'horsemanship' skill in the game........ no idea how this would be implemented.......

Menu Time: For alchemy, wouldn't it be easy enough to check the Potions created stat to see how many potions the player made while in menu-mode? I suppose that this could have some serious side effects alongside sleep requirement mods..... make too many potions, and you collapse when exiting the menu........ not entirely sure how the requirements mods work, but, would advancing time while in the alchemy menu be enough to trigger the warning messages or whatever that come up?

Static Alchemy: This one I agree with. using an already set up alchemy table, or, whatever, wouldn't impose any/minimal penalties, having to whip out, and set up your equipment on the other hand, SHOULD take time. I think getting into the minor details (one could argue whether walking around with a bunch of empty bottles is "minor"........) would start edging over the border of "micromanagement...... although, I could see adding a requirement for empty bottles to making potions..... just make them relatively easily available, and perhaps, add one to the players inventory when they consume it?

[claire ley]

"Menu Time: For alchemy, wouldn't it be easy enough to check the Potions created stat to see how many potions the player made while in menu-mode? I suppose that this could have some serious side effects alongside sleep requirement mods..... make too many potions, and you collapse when exiting the menu........ not entirely sure how the requirements mods work, but, would advancing time while in the alchemy menu be enough to trigger the warning messages or whatever that come up?"

I did that. Opened a book, forgot menu time was on, went away for an hour (didn't mean to D:), ehwn I came back 3 days had passed and I died instantly from no food, no drink, and no sleep.

"Static Alchemy: This one I agree with. using an already set up alchemy table, or, whatever, wouldn't impose any/minimal penalties, having to whip out, and set up your equipment on the other hand, SHOULD take time. I think getting into the minor details (one could argue whether walking around with a bunch of empty bottles is "minor"........) would start edging over the border of "micromanagement...... although, I could see adding a requirement for empty bottles to making potions..... just make them relatively easily available, and perhaps, add one to the players inventory when they consume it?"

I already use At Home Alchemy, but I agree it doesn't go far enough - make it so one can't carry their kit around and use it without setting it up, and the bottles idea would be the perfect rebalancer - as of now I can make 20 potions in one go, making ~2000 septims.

[Gemma Woods Illustration]

I thought this might be worth a mention for immersion play:

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=991954

Makes shopping a bit more realistic

[JR Cash]

One of the big immersion breakers for me, of all things, is sound.

On the other hand, having a random morrowind sound pop up in an appropriate dungeon in oblivion? Made me feel like I'd just swilled a small fuzzy kitten.

I'd like to recommend the following mods to your basic immersion list, since sound/weather ends up being pretty intertwined:

More Immersive Sound (Plus the fix) 1.d
Oblivion Stereo Sound Overhaul 2.1
Symphony of Violence 0.5
Storms and Sounds v3 (Good time to mention I like Enhanced Weather, 80% darker nights
Audia Arcanum Sound Overhaul 2.1 (Note, this one includes Atmospheric Oblivion.)

@Delte: When you're running as extensive a list of mods as I do in my search for the perfect list, Wyre Bash isn't an option you use to get away from ordering mods correctly. It's the /only way/ to get all the changes from the mods you have to actually work, because I've run into a ton of situations where no matter how you order the mods, you're going to lose a couple thousand entries, some cell changes, race information, NPC faces, what have you. When you're running a setup like you've usually run, yes, it's entirely possible. But if you get into a list that's rather complex, you'll end up noticing a huge improvement when you use Wyre Bash, because all the mods will be all there, instead of just having a random melange that isn't what most of the original authors intended.

Sorry, I know it was 3 pages back, but I had to throw in my 2 cents worth.

[Lil Miss]

yep, those are good. I'd recommend getting bumbek's more immersive sound edited, which is already fixed, plus throw in brumbek's ambient town sounds edited for some more life to your cities. and don't forget that AA 2.1 also has a rather nice addon in "footsteps of heroism" , which overhaul's the player's sounds as he moves along.

[ZANEY82]

yep, those are good. I'd recommend getting bumbek's more immersive sound edited, which is already fixed, plus throw in brumbek's ambient town sounds edited for some more life to your cities. and don't forget that AA 2.1 also has a rather nice addon in "footsteps of heroism" , which overhaul's the player's sounds as he moves along.

BWEEEE!

They sound wonderful. I like them, thanks!

Of course, 10 minutes later I did something else that broke Oblivion again. Whoops

I just had a brilliant idea. Turn the default Oblivion install into an omod. Break Oblivion? batch deactivate everything, then just reload the Oblivion omod!

(Brilliant may infact mean insane.)

I'll get back to you on if it works or not. Making a 5.4GB omod takes a while, even for me lol.

[cosmo valerga]

A 5.4GB omod? Good lord what is wrong with you >_>;

[Suzy Santana]

A 5.4GB omod? Good lord what is wrong with you >_>;

edit: Congratulations, OBMM, you make assumptions about max file size and die on insanely large omods.

*snort*

The omod itself was 4.2-ish GB.

But then OBMM went wiggy-wiggy-wiggy.

I guess I'll just copy it. Since this drive can write at 90MB/sec and the other one can read at 90MB/sec, it should be a fair match.