Demi-God in TES? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:55 pm

What makes you believe they don't have absolute power, in their realms? Because they don't have the power to contradict their rule?

As I recall, Mehrunes Dagon didn't do much to stop the CoC when he entered Oblivion.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:37 am

As I recall, Mehrunes Dagon didn't do much to stop the CoC when he entered Oblivion.

MD could just be very dumb or highly arrogant (which is a big trait with the princes)

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:09 am

There are other factors at work here. The events surrounding the Crisis were designed with the success of the player in mind. Had Dagon stoped the CoC, would we be discussing this? You're also overlooking the possability Dagon either doesn't know where Cloudruler is, and thus Martin and the CoC, or the CoC's success was part of a plan, or both. I mean, there's the whole level scaling factor as well. Who's to say the CoC didn't lose his balls, trying to escape some of the indigenous plant life, wade through neck deep pits of blood, or fight off brain-eating mites crawling into her ears?

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:35 am

I should of stated more clearly what Demi God I was looking for; my apologies. I was referring to if any man/women/elven mortal was of descent from a God and Mortal pair, much like Hercules and Perseus were the sons of Zeus. I do, however, apprecieate all of the comments thrown here. I believe I have found what I was looking

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:59 pm

To answer your original question directly - No, The Nerevarine would not be considered a Demi-God because he/she is not of divine origin and yes, as Hairdo stated in one post there are possibly beings walking around that are the descendants of Gods.

The great-grandchild of an Et-Ada would be nearly indistinguishable from a mere mortal, perhaps with a slightly longer lifespan and physical stamina.

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:27 pm

Hrmm...there is something that is nagging in the back of my head, so stay here with me. From what we know, the realm of the prince is the prince itself. So, before Sheogorath, the Shivering Ilse was Jyggy. However, upon Jyggy's defeat, he says he's now free, but the realm is still there as the new Sheogorath. However, before Sheogorath and Jyggy used to be one and the same being. So, does this mean Jyggy's own body has been taken over by a mortal now made god?

You should try to think of jyggy and Sheo as being a case of multiple personality disorder. When Jyg says he's free, he's basically agreeing to let go of the prince, to fade into mental obscurity, dissipate, or whatever would happen. He's not making any more claims on the conscious mind and the body (sheo's realm). Or he might try again in a 1000 years.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:42 am

I should of stated more clearly what Demi God I was looking for; my apologies. I was referring to if any man/women/elven mortal was of descent from a God and Mortal pair, much like Hercules and Perseus were the sons of Zeus. I do, however, apprecieate all of the comments thrown here. I believe I have found what I was looking

Well, Morihaus was either the son or nephew of Kynareth, and he and Alessia had a son named Belhazra the Man-Bull. Of course, Alessia may have been a divine or a Demi-god herself.

Reman Cyrodill was the son of a human man and the spirit of Alessia, in the form of a mound of dirt (literally). I would consider Reman Cyrodill to be a mortal man of divine origin, and therefore a Demi-god.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:34 am

Alessia was mortal and became divine when she crowned herself Empress, or died - I can't remember the exact details.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:40 am

Alessia was mortal and became divine when she crowned herself Empress, or died - I can't remember the exact details.

Yeah she was an Apotheosis like Tiber Septim. Still, that would make her son Reman a Demi-god wouldn't it?

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:04 am

Yes, I'd consider Reman to be a Demi-God. Probably one reason why the Reman Empire is thought to be much more spectacular than the Septim Empire.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:11 am

The Septims who bore the Amulet should be considered demi-gods, then. By bearing the Amulet of Kings, Reman's identification mark, they bore his spirit. Whatever you may think of the Empire's corruption, they ruled in the tradition of Reman Cyrodiil.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:42 am

[From the Trials of St. Alessia]

Akatosh made a covenant with Alessia in those days so long ago. He gathered the tangled skeins of Oblivion, and knit them fast with the bloody sinews of his Heart, and gave them to Alessia, saying, 'This shall be my token to you, that so long as your blood and oath hold true, yet so shall my blood and oath be true to you. This token shall be the Amulet of Kings, and the Covenant shall be made between us, for I am the King of Spirits, and you are the Queen of Mortals. As you shall stand witness for all Mortal Flesh, so shall I stand witness for all Immortal Spirits.'

And Akatosh drew from his briast a burning handful of his Heart's blood, and he gave it into Alessia's hand, saying, 'This shall also be a token to you of our joined blood and pledged faith. So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. So long as the dragonfires shall burn, to you, and to all generations, I swear that my Heart's blood shall hold fast the Gates of Oblivion.

So long as the Blood of the Dragon runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years. But should the dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness, and the Demon Lords of Misrule shall govern the land.'

Reman is a Demi-God with or without the Amulet. It is because of his divine conception and origin he would even be considered a Demi-God. With reference to the quote above, the Amulet is the signification of a pact with Akatosh - It is merely an artifact and by being of the Blood of the Dragon doesn't make any Septim a Demi-God. Tiber Septim was mere mortal until his divine ascension to Talos. The word used was apotheosis for himself and Alessia.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:59 am

MD could just be very dumb or highly arrogant (which is a big trait with the princes)

Perhaps, but for the time being, i feel the evidence that Daedric realms are the princes themselves is insufficient in light of evidence suggesting the contrary in TES IV regarding the planes, both in the main quest and SI.

Reman is a Demi-God with or without the Amulet. It is because of his divine conception and origin he would even be considered a Demi-God. With reference to the quote above, the Amulet is the signification of a pact with Akatosh - It is merely an artifact and by being of the Blood of the Dragon doesn't make any Septim a Demi-God. Tiber Septim was mere mortal until his divine ascension to Talos. The word used was apotheosis for himself and Alessia.

I never heard of anything that suggested that Reman Cyrodiil was anything more than Tiber Septim prior to becoming Emperor.

Edit: Rephrased.

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:10 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/remanada.shtml

Reman may have been a Demi-God but it was Tiber Septim who in the end ascended to Godhood.

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:57 pm

And by being a god, aren't his heirs 'demi-gods.' Talos' apotheosis as the Spirit of Nirn meant his heirs were legally obligated to the same inheritance of Reman. This is what it means to be a Dragonborn. The line of Reman-ada was all but spent, until Talos reforged it. This is the progression bookended by Alessia - or even further back, but we all know that story - and Martin(?).

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:44 am

The way I'm looking at it is; Tiber Septim died and then became divine - He had already fathered his heirs while mortal, so they are of mortal blood and would not be considered Demi-Gods. The Septims are indeed legally obligated to Reman's inheritance and are Dragonborn.
In The Elder Scrolls universe, there are very, very few Demi-Gods as we have already defined in this thread. Morihaus and Reman are the only ones that come to mind so far but I am sure there would be more if someone could suggest any.

» Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:36 pm

He didn't father the Emperors that came after his son, yet most bear the Amulet and are so deemed Dragonborn. Even the same rite that enthroned Reman is re-enacted with each Emperor's asscension. I see Talos as a spirit who indwells within the Septims, to give them the right to rule, in the order of Reman. Some might liken the relationship of Reman and Talos, to that of Melchizedek and Jesus, respectively. We interpret the same information differently, is all.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:35 am

I agree that each new Emperor takes the place of Talos and that has some pretty complicated metaphysical implications, naturally raising as many questions as it answers. I'm not sure if that's because Talos actually inhabits the Septim bloodline, or if it's more a matter of "placeholding" and simply acting the part, tricking the universe into accepting it.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:46 am

Yet what does being "Dragonborn" mean for the various individuals who stole the throne? When the Empress Kintyra II Septim was slain and replaced on the throne by the usurper Uriel Mantiarco, surely the dragonfires were still lit? Kintyra was said to be the last of purely Septim blood, so how could a usurper claim the same protection?

What *is* pure Septim blood, anyway? They're all descended through Tiber's brother, and Uriel Mantiarco, along with his uncles Cephoros and Magnus, were of a separate branch of Kintyra's family--did something not get passed on? And even if it didn't, the dragonfires were clearly still lit during the rule of Katariah and her baseborn son--much less the splinter family of Septims that has since ruled.

There's obviously something special about the Septims, and it probably has to do with Talos--but I'm not sure what.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:33 am

Yet what does being "Dragonborn" mean for the various individuals who stole the throne? When the Empress Kintyra II Septim was slain and replaced on the throne by the usurper Uriel Mantiarco, surely the dragonfires were still lit? Kintyra was said to be the last of purely Septim blood, so how could a usurper claim the same protection?

What *is* pure Septim blood, anyway? They're all descended through Tiber's brother, and Uriel Mantiarco, along with his uncles Cephoros and Magnus, were of a separate branch of Kintyra's family--did something not get passed on? And even if it didn't, the dragonfires were clearly still lit during the rule of Katariah and her baseborn son--much less the splinter family of Septims that has since ruled.

There's obviously something special about the Septims, and it probably has to do with Talos--but I'm not sure what.

If I may, a Dragonborn isn't so much the Septim bloodline, as the Cyrodiil bloodline¹. Alessia is that bloodline; the bloodline is Cyrodiil². When a Dragonborn is established, they rule from the divine seat of Cyrodiil - the Seat of Sundered Kings³. Alessia gave birth to Remanada, aka Reman Cyrodiil, her first Dagonborn⁴. Reman was her first, thus Reman established the tradition of the Dragonfires ceremony⁵. After Alessia's bloodline was again erased⁶, Hjalti reforged it. He ruled from the divine seat as Tiber Septim⁸, an heir of Alessia, in the tradition of Reman - yet more fulfilled, because Talos is the completion of a progressive, edification, or mantling⁹, of Shezarr. Shezarr was the Missing God whom Alessia named 'freedom;' freedom is catalyst of the Enantiomorph, which Talos was¹⁰.

¹ [The Amulet] is the Symbol of the Empire and later taken as the symbol of the Septim line.

² On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils... Thus does Alessia become the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings.

³ [N]one dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne ; http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/cyrodiil.shtml

⁴ [Hrol] spoke to her, saying, I love you sweet Aless... AND HROL DID LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK ... [A]nd at its peak [Sed-Yenna] saw what it had yielded, an infant she named Reman, which is "Light of Man."

⁵ [Reman] instituted the rites of becoming Emperor, which included the ritual geas to the Amulet of Kings, a soulgem of immense power.

⁶ [S]o shall I run until you learn my pain, which renders you and all this land dead. ... And in the days of interregnum, the Chim-el Adabal was lost again amid the petty wars of gone-heathen kings. ; Theologians ascribe the long centuries of political and economic turmoil following the collapse of the Reman dynasty to the loss of the Amulet of Kings, and associate the renaissance of the Cyrodilic empire in the Third Era with Tiber Septim's recovery of the Amulet from Reman III's tomb.

⁷ After their victory, the Nords called Hjalti Talos, or Stormcrown. ... Zurin Arctus, the Grand Battlemage (not the Underking), then crowns Hjalti as Tiber Septim, new Emperor of All Cyrodiil. ; Talos, anon Stormcrown, the glorious yet-emperor Tiber Septim ; Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind.

⁸ [Talos'] presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane. ; Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn, the god of all mortals. ; In the end, [Shezarr] had become “the spirit behind all human undertaking.” Even though this was merely a thinly-disguised, water-downed version of Shor.

Edit: ⁹ Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora." ; Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn, the god of all mortals. ; Shezarr was the spirit behind all human undertaking... ; Once there were Eight Divines. Then Tiber Septim became Talos and the Eight became Nine. I follow the old way, of honoring the Eight while also giving due to Talos, the One who ascended.

¹⁰ Nirn (Female/Land/Freedom catalyst for birth-death of enantiomorph) ; [A]nd she said: "And this thing I have thought of, I have named it, and I call it freedom. Which I think is just another word for Shezarr Who Goes Missing... ; Shezarr (God of Man): Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan... ; The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:17 am

I followed up until you said: "Hjalti reforged it. He ruled from the divine seat as Tiber Septim"

How did he reforge the bloodline? And how does it pass to subsequent emperors who are not at all descended from him?

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:05 am

its more important to be a successor in spirit and go through the motions than it is to actually have the blood of alessia. i think what subadim was getting at though is that hjalti/talos/tiber was an avatar of shezar/shor/lorkhan/freedom, the same concept as alesh embodied. or something, i just woke up 10 minutes ago.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:00 pm

its more important to be a successor in spirit and go through the motions than it is to actually have the blood of alessia. i think what subadim was getting at though is that hjalti/talos/tiber was an avatar of shezar/shor/lorkhan/freedom, the same concept as alesh embodied. or something, i just woke up 10 minutes ago.

If that's the case, then I agree strongly. I also feel this is the reason the lore writers decided to start the Mede dynasty rather than continue the Septim one from some distant cousin or offspring of Calaxes Septim. Those people would have have Septim family blood but not Dragonblood. That's something beyond genetic. That requires a Hero. If you look at the way Titus Mede sacked the Imperial City with less than 1,000 men and took the Empire for himself, that's more in line with the Alessian tradition of heroic deeds than simply ascending to the throne because of who your mommy and daddy were. (In fact, him marching on White Gold Tower and deposing his enemies is almost exactly like what Pelinal and Alessia did) There may well be little bastard Septims out there somewhere, but they didn't walk the path the way the new Emperor did.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:03 am

I followed up until you said: "Hjalti reforged it. He ruled from the divine seat as Tiber Septim"

How did he reforge the bloodline? And how does it pass to subsequent emperors who are not at all descended from him?

...So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this Dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. But should the Dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness...

Alessia made - named - the 'Missing God,' in anticipation of Tiber Septim. Tiber mantled the Missing God, thereby becoming the immortal, Spirit of Nirn. Since he was a Dragonborn - bearing the Amulet - and he was Nirn's immortal Spirit, Tiber could perpetuate the covenant Dragonfires, indefinitely, through his immortality.

edit: shortened for clarity, maybe

There may well be little bastard Septims out there somewhere, but they didn't walk the path the way the new Emperor did.

They didn't need to, because Talos already had. All they needed to do was perform the ritual and pray they were worthy, so the omniscient Dragonfires wouldn't find them wanting and engulf them in flame.

In addendum:
And to this host appeared at last a spirit who resembled none other than El-Estia, queen of ancienttimes, who bore in her left hand the dragonfire of the aka-tosh and in her right hand the jewels of the covenant and on her briast a wound that spilt void onto her mangled feet. And seeing El-Estia and Chim-el Adabal, Hrol and his knights wailed and set to their knees and prayed for all things to become as right. Unto them the spirit said, I am the healer of all men and the mother of dragons...

The Dragonfires and Amulet are joint-symbols of the Dragonborn. This makes a great deal of sense, considering fire is symbolic of incorruptability and omniscience. That Alessia held both tells me the Cyrodiil dynasty was without blemish and holy. I believe the hole in her chest is symbolic of the Missing God, who would proceed from Cyrodiil's bloodline, as her yet-heir, Tiber Septim. If this is true, then being a great man isn't good enough, you need to be covered by the Dragonfires ritual. Sorry, Mede lovers, I don't see that happening.

» Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:43 am

...So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this Dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. But should the Dragonfires fail, and should no heir of our joined blood wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall the Empire descend into darkness...

Alessia made - named - the 'Missing God,' in anticipation of Tiber Septim. Tiber mantled the Missing God, thereby becoming the immortal, Spirit of Nirn. Since he was a Dragonborn - bearing the Amulet - and he was Nirn's immortal Spirit, Tiber could perpetuate the covenant Dragonfires, indefinitely, through his immortality.

edit: shortened for clarity, maybe

If that's the case, why the ritual each time? And why did they go out after Uriel VII died?