Why stop there? Why not use Smithing as well?

and without that? Destruction is back burner skill. Useless, just like all other magic skill, when warrior/thief skills are easily more beneficial and less costly.

Its funny how you say magic is useless, but if Im using all the schools to my advantage and no enemy can get close enough to hit me then I must be doing something right.

Bottom line is if you dont like it, and you feel it's useless, play as something else. Like I said in another thread, not everyone likes to run around wearing heavy armor and bashing skulls in with a warhammer. If you dont like the magic, fine. But to call it useless is unfair as it's worked for so many people.

The cost can be done away with. That hardly can be an argument to call it useless. It's the power that matters, and Destruction has it.

I'm sure there were many situations when you had to run in order to avoid being quickly killed by a mage casting ice storm or fireballs at you.

Melee pcs increase their combat provess through combat while a mage doesn't. That lighting bolt you learned 5 lvls ago still does the same damage as it did 5 lvls ago while your enemies get tougher and more killy.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw5qb8bhmm1qksqk7o1_1280.jpg

A melee pc has his skills leveling while he does combat (armor gets better, block gets better, melee gets better).

True but the ai cheats.

At the beginning of the game, one power attack and you are out of stamina. At the beginning of the game, sneaking is very hard. At the beginning of the game, you run out of Magicka quickly.

If you run out of Stamina, use normal attacks. If you cannot cut some heads off, go with the bow. If you run out of Magicka, grab some Staves.

At the late stages of the game, you can power attack without worrying about your stamina; sneak becomes very easy; and you can reduce spell costs to 0 if you want.

You see? Every build has a problem at the early stages of the game and you have to overcome that problem by yourself.

Well said.

They only work differently.

In magic you progress by learning new spells. When firebolt doesn't cut it anymore, it's time to learn fireball and kick ass once again.

Warning. Warning. Irrelevant image detected.

A mage's combat prowess does indeed increase through usage, just not in the same manner that melee skills do. Through perk allocation primarily and then how you choose to employ said spells.

A firebolt's base damage is 25pts. No perks, no potions, no enchantments or dual casting. It is an apprentice spell, the equivalent weapon would be Dwarven or Orcish. The Dwarven sword has 10 base damage (Orcish for whatever reason only has 9).

Now, you can swing that sword faster than you can cast a firebolt, no doubt about that. But you also have to get in nice and close. And considering we're talking about the skills on their own, that's not a good idea. With no armour, you'll be getting hit back relatively hard where as Mr Mage is nice and safe throwing his fireballs from a distance. And each successive fireball does additional damage, because the target is on fire.

It is too early in the morning for me to do the math when factoring in perks though, so I'll leave that for later unless someone else wants to 'represent'.

If you don't want the utility of Impact by dual casting destruction spells, you can just double-cast (casting single firebolts for example with each hand).

Might as well be a spellsword then, which uses melee, likely more than magic.

So what? Only relying on One-Handed, a Daedric Sword does the following damage:

Base Damage (16) x 100 Skill (1,5) x Armsman 5/5 (2) = 48

A Daedric Warhammer does:

Base Damage (31) x 100 Skill (1,5) x Barbarian 5/5 (2) = 93

Incenerate, Icy Spear and Thunderbolt do 60 damage (90 damage if you use the boost perks). Not to mention that spells speed attack is a lot faster. Which means that, without any other skill, Magic is indeed stronger than melee.

The force of your weapon comes from Smithing and, for some, Enchanting.

Therefore, Mages can use crafting skills, Alchemy to increase the damage output the same way a melee character uses Smithing.

The difference is, Smithing and Enchanting are passive. While Alchemy is active - you need to remember hotkeys and actually use them in combat. If you prefer Mouse Click + Mouse Click + Mouse Click and the guy is killed is up to you. Yes, relying on potions and poisons can be hard, but at least doesn't become tedious after 500 hours of Mouse Click + Mouse Click + Mouse Click.

I can kind of see why Bethesda made Destruction magic the way they did. If you're on PC, you can get a simple mod that adds a Fortify Destruction Damage enchantment. If you stack a few of these on some armor, the damage you can do is simply ridiculous. It's incredibly overpowered. You can have an area of effect spell, such as fireball, ice storm (the best), or chain lightning doing almost 200 damage at a very minor cost. That's just banaynays.

That's nice.

It's funny that you say that, considering that without any crafting skill melee can keep up consistent damage, while a mage putters out after 3 -4 shots.

Without any crafting skill, Incinerate has a base cost of 298 (194 with the cost perk). Unless your mage has geared up the wazoo with -cost enchants, well...

Don't know about that. There are many, many instances where Draugr burst out of their sarcophagi and they are right on top of the PC. I think what you are describing only applies when you can pick your moment, cast the complex spell and start combat. When it's the other way around, shouts such as Slow Time or Become Ethereal are your friend, not the master level destruction spells.

I have yet to play a pure mage but these discussions threads sure do pique my curiosity.

And for the record, I did play a pure archer on Adept up to 100. Without enchanting, smithing, and sneaking, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to make a case for Archery as a pure, self-sufficient skill.

the only questionable school of magic is destruction, even then it has its uses

pure mages with maxed illusion and conjuration will tear [censored] up

15 skill, sure. 100 skill, 112. No smithing, get at melee range with a standard armor. At least I can keep my distance

I already played lots of Warriors, lots of Assassins and now I have started to play mages. I can conclude that, EVERY SINGLE BUILD, needs secundary skills.

if you have to rely on indirect damage, it is underrated in general.

that's your opinion, and that's fine, but saying illusion and conjuration aren't good magic schools is ridiculous, 1 dual cast of frenzy and two dremora lords is enough for pretty much any conflict i come across in game, i'm level 32 and experience zero difficulty in combat

Melee gets better through skill (every skill point gives 0.5% more damage), through perks (a lots of damage perks which all stack together, destruction has like 6 perks that increase dmg, 2 for each element), through gear (kinda like getting a new spell)

There is no reason not to consider armor as you have to pick up armor during intro.

I am simply saying that No matter how powerful the magic school is, you can do just as well as, if not better than, it as a pure warrior or assassin, which you cannot argue is false because you know it is true.

There is. Because if you consider armor then you are using a secondary skill. And if it is okay to do that, then it is okay to do the same for a destruction mage.

i can achieve the exact same outcome with a pure mage than i can with both a warrior and assassin

i agree destruction is underpowered compared to a warrior and assassin however, but it's still powerful enough in game

the effectiveness of an Offensive skill should not rely on other Skills, but if this were true for all of them, then where are the "One-handed is Under-powered" threads for the people who decided to only use that?

I've had a Unarmored Two-handed warrior on Master, did just fine.

I have a Pure Mage who actually DOES use other schools of magic on Expert, -keeps getting one-hit-killed by everything-

_{That right there has been my aguement from the beginning. Right on.}

_{But its all personal preference. Sure you can do similar type damage with a warrior, but like I said before, that play-style might not be for everyone. I for one prefer to play as a mage over a warrior even if it might do the same damage. I feel mage playing is alot more tactical and requires more strategy. Anyone can be an orc, run into combat wearing daedric armor wielding a warhammer, scream "RaaaaaaawwwwwRrrrrrrr" and anihilate anything stupid enough to stand in the way.}