after reading all this I know you are the one who actually doesnt have any experience low or high level with destruction....
use lighting on a mage mob.. and he simply WONT cast, literely he will run in and melee with your dagger

only the clueless says spells stop scaling at 40... its in the 30-50 level ranges that you start getting acess to the best scaling of the spells as you get equipment and perks and the mana cost or your mana pool gets boosted.

Yes, a mage can take warrior skills, but at that point they cease to be a pure mage.

A PURE thief can cause competitive high-level DIRECT damage using thief skills (i.e. Archery and daggers - yes I include them in thief skills because of the damage multiplier perks in the Sneak tree).

A PURE warrior can cause competitive high-level DIRECT damage using warrior skills - 1-hand or 2-hand weapons. The exploit is not necessary.

A PURE mage cannot cause competitive high-level DIRECT damage using mage skills - Destruction, the only direct damage skill, does not even cause as much damage (i.e. DESTRUCTION) as Conjuration, which is supposedly a defensive skill.

I don't know where you're getting your facts from, given the numbers involved it's impossible to see how you can kill high-level enemies at any decent speed using Destruction as your sole means of offence.

And that's the point. Destruction is a purely OFFENSIVE skill. As soon as it's out-performed in its only function by all other offensive skills and even some defensive ones, it becomes invalid and obsolete.

Please don't start insulting me. Sure, I still use Flames, cause I am ,of course, not curious about the higher level spells and how they look like. And to be honest, 200 pts. of damage is just a joke...

None of this negates the fact that Destruction magic is weak. Weaker than in any Elder Scrolls game previous. And, *gasp*, somehow it didn't suddenly make you godlike at level 1 in Morrowind. That's because there aren't just two settings, crap-tier and god-tier, for balance. I'm not saying that it's crap-tier now, and I'm not saying that mod will make it god-tier.

It's just that, as it is, there's no reason at all to take destruction over another form of direct damage. Two-handed, Archery, One-handed, anything. Even an unarmed Khajit with the armor perk that adds AR of gloves to damage is going to kill stuff much quicker, and take less damage in the process.

I don't care if you want your character to be weaker than anyone else's. That's your decision. But it doesn't mean that somebody who wants to have a Destruction mage on par with warriors or thieves is somehow lesser for using a mod that brings balance to the game.

I'm not playing a Mage character now, as my last destruction mage couldn't make it past the first dragon, no matter the amount of HP potions consumed. That's how weak it is. But once I finish the game with my current character, I'll revisit mages thanks to this mod. I would have no interest in them otherwise.

You can't 2-shot anything with any spell on master except enemies that are locked lower than level 50. It's just how it is. If you actually fight enemies that are level 50, destruction is amazingly weak.

The highest damage spell gets to 225 damage if an enemy is standing right on top of you and you use firestorm. The damage diminishes greatly as the enemies get farther away.

The best ranged spell in the game can get to 120 damage. That is incredibly weak on master difficulty.


Regular level 50+ enemies on master difficulty have WAY more than 500 health. More like 1000-2000. Many times higher. There is no, "I play destruction better than you so it's ok" argument. There are straight numbers that show how much it takes to kill things and how much damage a spell deals.

you calling me al iar then posting flatout clueless stuff... and I am theo ne insulting YOU?
seriously this conversation is getting really old really fast, its best to end it, you have your mind made up, I am wasting my fingertips



its different, and yes weaker, not weak, than previous TES... simply because other elder scrolls had spellcrafting.
and there is a reason to take destruction over other forms and I listed them countless times... in fact I use it as main school... pure mage... cloth mage---- and do awesomely with it.

Huh? When did I call you a liar?

regular enemies do NOT have 500 health in my experience at all, if they even reached 300 I'd be surprised. but yes I wouldnt be surprised if leaders had 1000-2000

then again its hard to get any real numbers from it, clearly as then umbers you are giving are wrong (highest single target dmg is 90)... the only thing I can say is I two shot, 3 tops normal mobs, I do have fully perked fire and lighting.

ah sorry it was the other poster >_<
but I dont think I insulted you either? if I did do report me if I get out of line it happens sometimes

I don't get what everyones problem is. My Dark Elf is now level 23 and his destruction magic can kill a dragon in 3 hits, are you sure you're buying new spells and perks in the Destruction skill?

Highest single target is 90 + 50% bonus fro the tree. So I was wrong, it's 135. I was just moving too fast.

Anyway, I don't know what you're fighting. Maybe the enemies are not scaling to you in the same way they are to me. Maybe you are going to places that you've already been and the enemies have locked to a lower level. Because seriously? Enemies at level 50 on master difficulty just do not have 300 health. That's just insane based on where I'm at right now.

You're right, you don't get what the problem is because you're level 23.

like i said the places I been fighting mobs in, were not locked any earlier than lvl 43-45, if I am not fighting lvl 50 mobs, the differencei n health will NOT be that big. I dont know how much health per level mobs get, but I am pretty sure they dont get 200+ health in 5 levels


thats an exhageration surely.... ALL dragons are either boss(story dragons) or leader ranked(world encounters) and will have pretty large health pools... unless the hp drops alot in lower difficulties I dont think you would ever 3 shot a dragon

Firstly, I'd suggest reading the whole thread - it's widely agreed that Destruction is perfectly fine at low-mid levels. It's when you have the most powerful spell available by level 30, but enemies keep getting stronger and stronger until level 50, that the problems begin.

And do you really think there would be an 11-page discussion about this if we'd overlooked something as obvious as perks?

Oh my god. Are you implying that you are indeed not level 50 and are actually level 43 or 45? And that you don't think the curve will scale enough to matter?

If this is true... I just... my head will explode.

Yes because I really started the game at level 23 and haven't played as a low level mage...

... no... I am implying that the mobs I been fighting were not level locked bellow lvl 43-45... because I am not sure if the first time I entered the area was in my mid-late 40's or when I was already 50.

Destrucition was OVERPOWERED in oblivion. it needed a step down. i belive that they have gone to far how ever, but then you have conjeration to go along with it to help you loads, and the other types, try combineing the magic skills, then you will own. magic is never to be used as a singel skill. it is mixed for a reson. just like a sword/dager/axe/mace, sheild, armour. all needed to make a good fighter. (unless you do not use a sheild). for a stealth, you cnt just have sneak, u need more. magic is no difference. magic weekens foes, strenghens alies, has people fight for you and fights. no need for destruction to be used by itself to fight. combine your skills and you will be a good mage.

Why are you guys continuing to argue with Ganen? He is blatantly lying, we know.

We are all very aware of facts that prove everything he is saying is wrong or a lie. So why bother? Let him enjoy playing on Novice like he really is and put him on your ignore list.

conjuration and destruction is the worst combo you can have as a mage.
mobs steal your skill points (as they kill mobs without letting you skill up destro), its harder to hit mobs when they are ziggzagging around your summons and you cant train them towards your spells, and you cant train mobs towards your aoe spells and can hit summons with them.

the only issues I have with destruction is dual casting(perk) is only good with downranked and rune spells.
wouldnt mind having a limited spellcrafting ability tho , or moderate +damage to spells gear/enchants. (low ones no more than 10%)

Again, check out the whole thread. At no point has low-level or even mid-level Destruction been called underpowered. It's at high levels - note, level 23 is NOT a high level, in fact it's barely a mid-level - that the problems arise. Destruction magic is at its most powerful at around level 30-35, when the most powerful spells become available.

However these spells never get any stronger, because the spell damage does not increase with your Destruction skill level. It is static. There are also no +spell damage enchantments available in the game. You're stuck with an unchanging spell damage output from Destruction spells, while enemies continue to get stronger and have better defences and HP as you continue to level up.

In simple numbers:

At level 30, your best spell does 135 damage. Enemy X has 200 HP and 50 magic resistance, therefore you can kill Enemy X in 2 spells.
At level 30, your best spell still does 135 damage. Enemy X now has 2000 HP and 500 magic resistance, therefore you can only kill Enemy X with 19 spells. However Enemy X also has 10 times more attack power, so you will be killed far before you can fire off 19 spells.

(Note: these numbers are placeholders, but they exhibit the problem in-game at the moment)

Add to this the fact that other direct damage skills like Archery, 1-handed and 2-handed weapons, DO scale in damage with the skill level, so they remain viable and competitive means of dealing direct damage. Furthermore, Conjuration - nominally a defensive magic skill - DOES scale upwards, in that an atronach at Conjuration 100 will have better offence and defence than an atronach at Conjuration 50. It gets to the point where Conjuration does more damage than Destruction - a skill whose only function is to deal damage.

Hopefully that'll clear it up a touch...

Post limit. Another topic on this subject that has been done to death.