I think we've long since established the game did not intend for destruction to be a completely stand alone skill. (nor did it intend for any single skill to be so.)

If Beth were to scale solo Destruction (one tree) up to the point where it matched the total output from the full set of melee skills, what would that do to the output from those casters who used their full set of skills? They'd have the substantial damage from conjuration, on top of the now super-charged destruction output, on top of all the utility advantages from other mage abilities.

For this reason, if you want to provide numbers on the potential damage output of a magicka-based build, you need to include conjuration. You should also include the benefits from AOE, ranged damage dealing, and crowd control, all of which are superior to their counterparts in the stamina-based builds.

I understand you'd prefer to use just Destruction. We all already agree with you that a single skill build is inferior to those using multiple synergistic skills. As it darn well should be.

But seeing the passion that some folks have for Destro only, here's what I'd do if it was my game. I'd offer a new mid and end tree perk in conjuration and enchanting and maybe one other tree. For conjuration, it would be a new spell along the lines of "sacrifice pet". Destro-only mages could cast it every 5 minutes or so. While active, it would prevent them from having any pets out, but would double the damage of all destro spells and double the magicka cost. Something similar for the other two skills. That way the single-minded destro folks could create the pure fireball nuker they want, while still having to invest in a reasonable number of skills just like everyone else.

Problem with conjuration is it's not limited to mages. Warrior can use conjuration just as effectively as a destro mage.

You have to do it, even drop the detail/resolution/windowed mode for the run.

It'll be hilarious

What ? The numbers I post were for basic sword attacks while being naked ... no power attacks or exploits or what not. 21 weapon damage, 100% bonus from armsman, 35% speed bonus from dual wielding perk, 20% dmg bonus from critical hits ... that's 21*2.0/0.65*1.2 = 77 dps with basic attack using rusty unenchanted sword, compared to the 112 dps of mage that lasts for 10 seconds and then stops.

As for mage being as tanky as warrior ... impossible without exploits or without leveling the mage as warrior.

Edit:The dps may be 70 as warrior since basic sword swing may take 1.1s to execute without perks. Can't find reliable info on that.

Just tested if the speed perk apply to 1h swing when dual wielding weapons and it sure does. That means naked dps with rusty daedric sword is 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps, no power attack, no enchants, no upgrade on the weapon, just a rusty sword and a dagger on off hand for the speed boost.

lvl 55 mage here with 100 destro, enchant and smithing, playing the game on expert. I still have no problem at all killing stuff and dont need any magicka potions or conjuration.So for me: 'Mage is fine'.

Unfortunately the numbers prove you are wrong. You only think it's fine and have no problems killing stuff.

"20% dmg bonus from critical hits" cant be applied because getting critical isnt a 100% chance and the bonus just boosts the crit dmg not the rate of criticals.
So your doing only 64 DPS while my mage does 112 DPS. Yes you can hit unlimited times while I cant but I got [censored]load of mana and lighting storm with 100 skill in destro and master perk costs only 41 ( in game stats vithout any gear )

So your meele does 2 times less dmg than my mage in the same time. Yes I gonna run out of mana if im not using any gear but with only 500 mana (and thats a low value for a high level mage) thats gonna give me 12 seconds of non stop dmg.

Im gonna dish out 112 x 12 = 1344 dmg with my mana bar in 12 seconds while your gonna do only 64x12=768 dmg in the mean time. Furthemore my disintegrate kicks in when the enemy health drops below 20% killing it instanly.

So we are both fighting one Draug Deathlord on master. Im gonna kill my enemy in 7-8 seconds while your gonna have to take 15 seconds to finish him.

The problem with this stuff is that to do this kind of damage the character needs to be level 12 with 90 in 1H and will be dead rather quickly after he starts swinging unless he has invested in other melee/support skills to increase survivability and mitigate this damage. At least the equivilant destruction mage would have Impact and stand a chance!

Balance, especially in a single player game has nothing to do with DPS in a vacuum. I think brucek2 is on the right track in this respect.

That is not to say that Destruction doesn't have issues. Especially with some of the higher level spells by the sound of it. But the premise of this thread (especially the ridiculous OP which presents itself as FACT despite being full on inaccuracies and assumptions) doesn't demonstrate that.

Ironically I didn't play my Destro mage past level 20 or so because loads of people were telling me that Dual + Impact made them ridiculously overpowered and I started a new character. There are several other people in this thread who seem to think their destruction mages are plenty powerful enough as well. Oh well, perhaps the grass is just greener elsewhere.

The first perk of bladesman states swords have 10% chance for a critical hit. 2 more perks increase this chance to 20%. Since mace gets 70% armor penetration for 3 perks which seems very very strong, I don't expect swords to get 20% extra critical damage ... that would be laughable. So I assume that it's 20% chance for critical hit based on the rank 1 description of the bladesman perk. With 100% extra dmg on critical hit, the average dps gain of 3/3 bladesman would be 20%. The best aproximation I can get with the limited documentation of the perks.

Also as stated in one of the other posts, you get 35% bonus speed if you spec dw perk and pull out 2nd weapon, you don't have to use it, iron dagger will do. To summ it up 21*2/0.77/0.65 = 83 dps without getting any crits with the sword, 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps if the crit perks work as I have said.

So the difference between autoattacking warrior and spell casting destro mage is in fact 83-100 vs 112. Thing is warrior can do it indefinitelly and has full mana bar for conjurations and resto healing. He can even decide to use his stamina and throw a power attack or two in the mix if he is bored. Mage once he is out of magicka just lost his dps AND his defenses.

Yeah I edited it .. sword swing 1.1 sec without dw perk. Will try to test this.
Edit : Ok the sword swing is by default 0.75 sec. That's crazy strong Have to try again.
Edit2 : 26 swings in 20 secs ... that's 0.77 swing speed.

What ? The numbers I post were for basic sword attacks while being naked ... no power attacks or exploits or what not. 21 weapon damage, 100% bonus from armsman, 35% speed bonus from dual wielding perk, 20% dmg bonus from critical hits ... that's 21*2.0/0.65*1.2 = 77 dps with basic attack using rusty unenchanted sword, compared to the 112 dps of mage that lasts for 10 seconds and then stops.

* If I go into a fight, kill everyone before my mana runs out, regen mana out of combat, go into a fight, kill everyone before my mana runs out, regen mana out of combat, repeat as much as you want then no - the 10 sec dosnt have [censored] on me really, I can dish damage the same way as a meele.
* You even mentioned power attacks in one of your previous post let me tell you this - using a bug/system exploits where you can power attack infinite times is not the intended way of playing. If you shune 0 mana then dont even mention this [censored].

Improving the rate of criticals would be totaly inconsistent and the other 2 perks state this fact plainly.

Let me point out problems in your equation with colors
21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps



First - your reducing by 35% the speed of your already reduced swings (35%).
Second - your adding a value that isnt a constant in the equation. Critical have a % success rate so you cant use them in a costant dmg.

After correcting the errors you left with 21dmgx2/0,77 = 42 dmg / 0,77 = 54.5 DPS

54.5 DPS of your meele is still 2 times lower than a destro lighting storm 112.5 DPS

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their character. What i will say is that, based on just the stats i chugged out in 15 minutes or so, a melee character can do more damage more easily than a mage character.

Using a bug for infinite power attacks is bad. Using enchanting for infinite magicka is good. We understand you completely.

Who cares if melee is stronger? What's the issue?

Sad when people respond to legitimate factual arguments with "Troll" card. I think they have the intellect of three year olds.

The good news for PC players is mods can fix this.

The bad news for everyone else is they can't have mods.

Using a bug for infinite power attacks is bad. Using enchanting for infinite magicka is good. We understand you completely.

*On master you won't kill everyone before you mana runs out with enchanting. This is the main problem. This is why your 10 second fights are a joke, noone cares about fake battles. We want to know whats more powerful in the actual game, and Destro is the weakest unless you stack the hell out of +magicka cost reduction. Your DPS test is going only by your own made up rules of "10" seconds, which is so unrealistic its funny.

*Not factoring in power attacks is the only "trolling" I see around here. They don't need to power level enchanting to do this. One-hand does way more DPS - > fact.