Destruction versus One Handed: Statistics

Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:20 am

Just tested if the speed perk apply to 1h swing when dual wielding weapons and it sure does. That means naked dps with rusty daedric sword is 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps, no power attack, no enchants, no upgrade on the weapon, just a rusty sword and a dagger on off hand for the speed boost.
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Cathrine Jack
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:38 pm

I think we've long since established the game did not intend for destruction to be a completely stand alone skill. (nor did it intend for any single skill to be so.)

If Beth were to scale solo Destruction (one tree) up to the point where it matched the total output from the full set of melee skills, what would that do to the output from those casters who used their full set of skills? They'd have the substantial damage from conjuration, on top of the now super-charged destruction output, on top of all the utility advantages from other mage abilities.

For this reason, if you want to provide numbers on the potential damage output of a magicka-based build, you need to include conjuration. You should also include the benefits from AOE, ranged damage dealing, and crowd control, all of which are superior to their counterparts in the stamina-based builds.

I understand you'd prefer to use just Destruction. We all already agree with you that a single skill build is inferior to those using multiple synergistic skills. As it darn well should be.

But seeing the passion that some folks have for Destro only, here's what I'd do if it was my game. I'd offer a new mid and end tree perk in conjuration and enchanting and maybe one other tree. For conjuration, it would be a new spell along the lines of "sacrifice pet". Destro-only mages could cast it every 5 minutes or so. While active, it would prevent them from having any pets out, but would double the damage of all destro spells and double the magicka cost. Something similar for the other two skills. That way the single-minded destro folks could create the pure fireball nuker they want, while still having to invest in a reasonable number of skills just like everyone else.


Problem with conjuration is it's not limited to mages. Warrior can use conjuration just as effectively as a destro mage. There is no synergy between the different schools of magic. The idea of cross school perks is good.
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Jesus Sanchez
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:22 pm

Problem with conjuration is it's not limited to mages. Warrior can use conjuration just as effectively as a destro mage.


No, that would only be true if warriors used magicka instead of stamina.

Warriors are forced to choose between the 1H and 2H skills, because you can not simultaneously use both. Bethesda thus put the total damage-dealing capacity of the stamina-based skills into each one of those trees. If a player found a way to swing a 1H and a 2H weapon simultaneously, while triggering all the perks from both skill trees, that would cause a significant imbalance.

Casters are not forced to choose between conjuration and destruction. It is entirely possible to have pets pounding away while also throwing out destro spells. Bethesda thus split the total damage-dealing capacity between the two trees.
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Annika Marziniak
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:44 pm

You have to do it, even drop the detail/resolution/windowed mode for the run.

It'll be hilarious :D


Its uploading "Skyrim owning an ancient dragon (1.91G)" gonna take 300 min lolz :hubbahubba: you can find it later under DieBySword account on youtube or searching the name "Skyrim owning an ancient dragon"

What ? The numbers I post were for basic sword attacks while being naked ... no power attacks or exploits or what not. 21 weapon damage, 100% bonus from armsman, 35% speed bonus from dual wielding perk, 20% dmg bonus from critical hits ... that's 21*2.0/0.65*1.2 = 77 dps with basic attack using rusty unenchanted sword, compared to the 112 dps of mage that lasts for 10 seconds and then stops.

As for mage being as tanky as warrior ... impossible without exploits or without leveling the mage as warrior.

Edit:The dps may be 70 as warrior since basic sword swing may take 1.1s to execute without perks. Can't find reliable info on that.


"20% dmg bonus from critical hits" cant be applied because getting critical isnt a 100% chance and the bonus just boosts the crit dmg not the rate of criticals.
So your doing only 64 DPS while my mage does 112 DPS. Yes you can hit unlimited times while I cant but I got [censored]load of mana and lighting storm with 100 skill in destro and master perk costs only 41 ( in game stats vithout any gear )

So your meele does 2 times less dmg than my mage in the same time. Yes I gonna run out of mana if im not using any gear but with only 500 mana (and thats a low value for a high level mage) thats gonna give me 12 seconds of non stop dmg.

Im gonna dish out 112 x 12 = 1344 dmg with my mana bar in 12 seconds while your gonna do only 64x12=768 dmg in the mean time. Furthemore my disintegrate kicks in when the enemy health drops below 20% killing it instanly.

So we are both fighting one Draug Deathlord on master. Im gonna kill my enemy in 7-8 seconds while your gonna have to take 15 seconds to finish him.
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Jake Easom
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:39 pm

lvl 55 mage here with 100 destro, enchant and smithing, playing the game on expert. I still have no problem at all killing stuff and dont need any magicka potions or conjuration.
So for me: 'Mage is fine'.
I havent played a melee character yet, but if its that much 'easier' (wich i can hardly imagine), shouldnt melee be considered overpowered instead?
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Claire Vaux
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:22 pm

I'll try and remember to look, I'll probably still be in the office then :D
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Josh Dagreat
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:41 pm

Just tested if the speed perk apply to 1h swing when dual wielding weapons and it sure does. That means naked dps with rusty daedric sword is 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps, no power attack, no enchants, no upgrade on the weapon, just a rusty sword and a dagger on off hand for the speed boost.


The problem with this stuff is that to do this kind of damage the character needs to be level 12 with 90 in 1H and will be dead rather quickly after he starts swinging unless he has invested in other melee/support skills to increase survivability and mitigate this damage. At least the equivilant destruction mage would have Impact and stand a chance!

Balance, especially in a single player game has nothing to do with DPS in a vacuum. I think brucek2 is on the right track in this respect.

That is not to say that Destruction doesn't have issues. Especially with some of the higher level spells by the sound of it. But the premise of this thread (especially the ridiculous OP which presents itself as FACT despite being full on inaccuracies and assumptions) doesn't demonstrate that.

Ironically I didn't play my Destro mage past level 20 or so because loads of people were telling me that Dual + Impact made them ridiculously overpowered and I started a new character. There are several other people in this thread who seem to think their destruction mages are plenty powerful enough as well. Oh well, perhaps the grass is just greener elsewhere.
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Thema
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:05 pm

lvl 55 mage here with 100 destro, enchant and smithing, playing the game on expert. I still have no problem at all killing stuff and dont need any magicka potions or conjuration.So for me: 'Mage is fine'.


Unfortunately the numbers prove you are wrong. You only think it's fine and have no problems killing stuff. ;)
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RUby DIaz
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:23 am

If you want Destruction to be really powerful, then the answer is: Arena (Battlemage) or Daggerfall!
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Cathrine Jack
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:13 pm

the math looks good ty as 4 the haters of magic if u going to use magic use your brain fight on your terms not theirs think of it this way mages=nerds 1h=jocks (nothing wrong with being a nerd ) i doubt we would be here without them
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MatthewJontully
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:30 pm

Unfortunately the numbers prove you are wrong. You only think it's fine and have no problems killing stuff. ;)


Who cares about the numbers (even IF they are right)? Its about how the gameplay fares and i can easily kill everything with my destro mage at lvl 55 at expert. The fact that i dont even need any potions implies that theyre actually too strong (or enchanting is too strong).

Ah, after reading your previous post i finally detect the hint of irony. Anyway, my comment in this post still stands for the rest ;)
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Music Show
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:31 pm

"20% dmg bonus from critical hits" cant be applied because getting critical isnt a 100% chance and the bonus just boosts the crit dmg not the rate of criticals.
So your doing only 64 DPS while my mage does 112 DPS. Yes you can hit unlimited times while I cant but I got [censored]load of mana and lighting storm with 100 skill in destro and master perk costs only 41 ( in game stats vithout any gear )

So your meele does 2 times less dmg than my mage in the same time. Yes I gonna run out of mana if im not using any gear but with only 500 mana (and thats a low value for a high level mage) thats gonna give me 12 seconds of non stop dmg.

Im gonna dish out 112 x 12 = 1344 dmg with my mana bar in 12 seconds while your gonna do only 64x12=768 dmg in the mean time. Furthemore my disintegrate kicks in when the enemy health drops below 20% killing it instanly.

So we are both fighting one Draug Deathlord on master. Im gonna kill my enemy in 7-8 seconds while your gonna have to take 15 seconds to finish him.

The first perk of bladesman states swords have 10% chance for a critical hit. 2 more perks increase this chance to 20%. Since mace gets 70% armor penetration for 3 perks which seems very very strong, I don't expect swords to get 20% extra critical damage ... that would be laughable. So I assume that it's 20% chance for critical hit based on the rank 1 description of the bladesman perk. With 100% extra dmg on critical hit, the average dps gain of 3/3 bladesman would be 20%. The best aproximation I can get with the limited documentation of the perks.

Also as stated in one of the other posts, you get 35% bonus speed if you spec dw perk and pull out 2nd weapon, you don't have to use it, iron dagger will do. To summ it up 21*2/0.77/0.65 = 83 dps without getting any crits with the sword, 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps if the crit perks work as I have said.

So the difference between autoattacking warrior and spell casting destro mage is in fact 83-100 vs 112. Thing is warrior can do it indefinitelly and has full mana bar for conjurations and resto healing. He can even decide to use his stamina and throw a power attack or two in the mix if he is bored. Mage once he is out of magicka just lost his dps AND his defenses.
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Jaylene Brower
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:48 am

The problem with this stuff is that to do this kind of damage the character needs to be level 12 with 90 in 1H and will be dead rather quickly after he starts swinging unless he has invested in other melee/support skills to increase survivability and mitigate this damage. At least the equivilant destruction mage would have Impact and stand a chance!

Balance, especially in a single player game has nothing to do with DPS in a vacuum. I think brucek2 is on the right track in this respect.

That is not to say that Destruction doesn't have issues. Especially with some of the higher level spells by the sound of it. But the premise of this thread (especially the ridiculous OP which presents itself as FACT despite being full on inaccuracies and assumptions) doesn't demonstrate that.

Ironically I didn't play my Destro mage past level 20 or so because loads of people were telling me that Dual + Impact made them ridiculously overpowered and I started a new character. There are several other people in this thread who seem to think their destruction mages are plenty powerful enough as well. Oh well, perhaps the grass is just greener elsewhere.

You get that damage by auto attacking, by spending 10 perks in 1h tree. The rest of your potential you can dedicate to getting survivability. I am not saying that destro mages are not viable.I am saying melee builds or rather melee/magic hybrids are way ahead of them.
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Latisha Fry
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:35 pm

The first perk of bladesman states swords have 10% chance for a critical hit. 2 more perks increase this chance to 20%. Since mace gets 70% armor penetration for 3 perks which seems very very strong, I don't expect swords to get 20% extra critical damage ... that would be laughable. So I assume that it's 20% chance for critical hit based on the rank 1 description of the bladesman perk. With 100% extra dmg on critical hit, the average dps gain of 3/3 bladesman would be 20%. The best aproximation I can get with the limited documentation of the perks.


Bladesman 1 0005f56f 30 One-handed Armsman Attacks with swords have a 10% chance of doing critical damage.
2 000c1e90 60 One-handed Attacks with swords have a 15% chance of doing more critical damage.
3 000c1e91 90 One-handed Attacks with swords have a 20% chance of doing even more critical damage.

Maces get armor penetration = more dmg dealt
Axes get bleeding = more dmg dealt
Sword get more dmg from criticals = more dmg dealt

Improving the rate of criticals would be totaly inconsistent and the other 2 perks state this fact plainly.

Also as stated in one of the other posts, you get 35% bonus speed if you spec dw perk and pull out 2nd weapon, you don't have to use it, iron dagger will do. To summ it up 21*2/0.77/0.65 = 83 dps without getting any crits with the sword, 21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps if the crit perks work as I have said.

So the difference between autoattacking warrior and spell casting destro mage is in fact 83-100 vs 112. Thing is warrior can do it indefinitelly and has full mana bar for conjurations and resto healing. He can even decide to use his stamina and throw a power attack or two in the mix if he is bored. Mage once he is out of magicka just lost his dps AND his defenses.


Let me point out problems in your equation with colors :D
21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps

Yeah I edited it .. sword swing 1.1 sec without dw perk. Will try to test this.
Edit : Ok the sword swing is by default 0.75 sec. That's crazy strong :) Have to try again.
Edit2 : 26 swings in 20 secs ... that's 0.77 swing speed.


First - your reducing by 35% the speed of your already reduced swings (35%).
Second - your adding a value that isnt a constant in the equation. Critical have a % success rate so you cant use them in a costant dmg.

After correcting the errors you left with 21dmgx2/0,77 = 42 dmg / 0,77 = 54.5 DPS

54.5 DPS of your meele is still 2 times lower than a destro lighting storm 112.5 DPS
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Alada Vaginah
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:26 am

Bump for my freestyle video of dragon owning:

http://youtu.be/dYGZ_G2_NWM?hd=1

Could have done a better job with it but had time constraints.
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Matthew Aaron Evans
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:25 am

What ? The numbers I post were for basic sword attacks while being naked ... no power attacks or exploits or what not. 21 weapon damage, 100% bonus from armsman, 35% speed bonus from dual wielding perk, 20% dmg bonus from critical hits ... that's 21*2.0/0.65*1.2 = 77 dps with basic attack using rusty unenchanted sword, compared to the 112 dps of mage that lasts for 10 seconds and then stops.


He doesn't seem to get the "Then stops" part, which is the big problem atm unless you totally latch on to enchanting for life. It makes Master extremely harder than all other damage types.

This is the reason we see so an exponential amount of more destro mods on Skyrimnexus instead of mods for other damage styles. It can't be that ALL bad players went destro...its that its factually the weakest as the OP proves when taking actual scenarios into account. Lightening storm without enchanting on Master against several enemeis? He can't be serious...

Also neither of you are factoring power attack dps, and that it only takes a sliver of stam to do another one.
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scorpion972
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:01 pm




* If I go into a fight, kill everyone before my mana runs out, regen mana out of combat, go into a fight, kill everyone before my mana runs out, regen mana out of combat, repeat as much as you want then no - the 10 sec dosnt have [censored] on me really, I can dish damage the same way as a meele.
* You even mentioned power attacks in one of your previous post let me tell you this - using a bug/system exploits where you can power attack infinite times is not the intended way of playing. If you shune 0 mana then dont even mention this [censored].


*On master you won't kill everyone before you mana runs out with enchanting. This is the main problem. This is why your 10 second fights are a joke, noone cares about fake battles. We want to know whats more powerful in the actual game, and Destro is the weakest unless you stack the hell out of +magicka cost reduction. Your DPS test is going only by your own made up rules of "10" seconds, which is so unrealistic its funny.

*Not factoring in power attacks is the only "trolling" I see around here. They don't need to power level enchanting to do this. One-hand alone vs Destro alone does way more DPS - > fact.
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Sarah Kim
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:14 pm

Improving the rate of criticals would be totaly inconsistent and the other 2 perks state this fact plainly.

I dunno ... what's standard crit chance for swords then ?

Let me point out problems in your equation with colors :D
21*2/0.77/0.65*1.2 = 100 dps



First - your reducing by 35% the speed of your already reduced swings (35%).
Second - your adding a value that isnt a constant in the equation. Critical have a % success rate so you cant use them in a costant dmg.

After correcting the errors you left with 21dmgx2/0,77 = 42 dmg / 0,77 = 54.5 DPS

54.5 DPS of your meele is still 2 times lower than a destro lighting storm 112.5 DPS

Come on ... 0.77 swing speed before dw perk, 35% reduction in addition to 0.77 swing speed. I have it right, you don't.
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Shelby McDonald
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:31 am

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their character. What i will say is that, based on just the stats i chugged out in 15 minutes or so, a melee character can do more damage more easily than a mage character.



Something I said in another thread.....

I don't believe, in a single player game, that each "character class" (general builds, whatever) needs to be balanced against each other. Warrior DPS doesn't need to be equal to Mage DPS.


What they DO need to be is balanced against the game - each reasonable build needs to be viable versus the challenges the game provides. If a Mage build can beat the game, and a Warrior build can beat the game... then it's all good. Even if they're not equal to each other.


Playstyles being balanced against each other is needed in mulitplayer & competitive games, not single player games.


(Now, a thread that details how Magic isn't equal to the game's enemies and quests, that's a different story. But I keep seeing all these threads comparing "classes" against each other. Which is silly.)
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Kevin S
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:40 pm

Using a bug for infinite power attacks is bad. Using enchanting for infinite magicka is good. We understand you completely.

Thing is at-least they don't have to rely on power leveling another skill just to make one-hand work.
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Kerri Lee
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:50 pm

Who cares if melee is stronger? What's the issue?
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Benji
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:01 pm

A few posts have gone away, starting with a member accusing another of trolling. That is not permitted on these forums, I could have edited all the rude stuff out, but I didn't - don't attack other players like that again.
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john page
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Who cares if melee is stronger? What's the issue?


No one cares that its stronger. Its at the later levels, destruction magic wanes in effectiveness because your enemies continue to get more health and HARDER HITTING SPELLS (wtf) and you're stuck doing the same damage you were before. Unless you have enchanted your gear to essentially null your magicka bar (many would consider exploitative), you are going to be playing 'ring around the table' for minutes just trying to kill a single enemy. Or, if you have the 0 cost destruction spells, you're going to be stun locking your enemy to death (while apparently legit, completely cheap as hell). Inefficient dual casting, while an interesting idea, doesn't help the situation at all.
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lolly13
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:25 pm

cool video :)
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no_excuse
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:26 pm

Sad when people respond to legitimate factual arguments with "Troll" card. I think they have the intellect of three year olds.

The good news for PC players is mods can fix this.

The bad news for everyone else is they can't have mods.


What really sad is that you just described youself with this too. You guys are dishing my statments saying they`re are false when they are based on FACTS from the game itself and testing of many other ppl. The base of the this topic uses the same facts I use in my own math to show you the truth about meele vs destro. Yet you say they`re are all false yet if they`re are presented in a way they make meele better then they are correct.

You guys are warped nothign else to say. Im not bother by it, neither I or You gonna win this discussion - The truth gonna win in the end. What counts is the ppl who invest they`re time to see which side of the argument did the math right.

Using a bug for infinite power attacks is bad. Using enchanting for infinite magicka is good. We understand you completely.


Never did I use it in any of my math, yet you ppl mention your stamina exploit all the time to make your meele better. I understand why you doing it, cant blame that you want to defend your way any means necesary.

*On master you won't kill everyone before you mana runs out with enchanting. This is the main problem. This is why your 10 second fights are a joke, noone cares about fake battles. We want to know whats more powerful in the actual game, and Destro is the weakest unless you stack the hell out of +magicka cost reduction. Your DPS test is going only by your own made up rules of "10" seconds, which is so unrealistic its funny.

*Not factoring in power attacks is the only "trolling" I see around here. They don't need to power level enchanting to do this. One-hand does way more DPS - > fact.


Take a look at my youtube video first. Then take a moment and think about what you typed. Once again your comparing your exploited meele to my base, only destro user. The 10 seconds isnt my rule its the OPs rule, 500 mana / 500 stamina build comparision - do you see how warped the rules of the OP are by just doing a 1:1 comparision of two build needing different amounts of health/stamina/magica.
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Harry-James Payne
 
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