Someone made a point in another thread that I thought was profound.


Comparisons between one-handed builds and destruction builds are irrelevant when put into context of the game world. Now, I would agree this indicates that a one-handed build puts out more damage than a destruction build. However, its irrelevant. The only relevant equation or comparison is not how well the destruction matches up with the other skills and perks but how it matches up to the game. One-handed requires a different play style than a destruction build so the comparison is fruitless. Who cares if warrior puts out more damage compared with a destruction mage.

Going out of magicka after 10 seconds results in the lowest dps on master. This is a fact. In the actual game base destro without enchanting and alchemy will be doing the lowest DPS. That is a fact.

Please understand this. This is why so many people who don't take enchanting have a problem w/ destro on master.

Yes the stamina thing might be an exploit, but its still part of base one-hand. It doesn't require other skills, its part of the play-style atm. You are asking people not to power attack :banghead: , it doesn't involve power leveling alchemy/enchanting, it involves only playing one-hand normally.




"+ 162% dmg destruct pot + 100% weakness to shock."

I stopped watching when I saw the bow and potions. So much for "base destro"

I agree, the thing is in game I run out of mana fast as a mage and anytime I am fighting a toughish mob i am running around just waiting for my mana to regen. It is doable, just kind of boring. On my stealth, one handed guy I can always keep fighting and it is a bit easier.

The crit chance for sword is the same as for bows and magic so its pointless to even think about it.
As for the 0.77 value its based on your own post man gimme a brake be a little bit consistent here.
You said 1.1 sec is the time without the dw perk and 0.77 is the time with the dw perk you got in game.
So why do you want to reduce it once more by 35% if the value you use already has the perk accounted for.

And it lowers DPS substantially lower than all other play styles - I wonder why some people don't realize this.

This fails due to lack of AoE comparison.

Haha so we have to make hunderds of potions keep drink them and shot weaknes using bow this all just to kill with spell? Ridiculous....

EDIT: forgot about leveling alchemy to 100

So your ok with exploiting power attack because they are in-game and dont need exploiting smithing / enchanting yet you are not ok with 0 mana casting that can be achieve without exploiting smithing / enchanting. Hell your not even content with mages wearing mage robes because they have mana reduction on them :hubbahubba:



The video was there to show that destro is good on master level not to show a base destro without anything trying to kill an ancient dragon.
And why are you so againts the pots, one is a crafted item that can be bought nearly as powerfull and the other is a vendor item I bought for gold not crafted myself.

I would not care if it were less as long as my wait for my next shot time was reduced. If mana regen stayed at the same speed in combat as out of combat for example I'd be fine doing less because at least I was slinging spells while still managing my mana bar just without the 20 second pauses. Honestly I would change a lot of things but it is out of the scope of this thread.

So wait, magic can crit now? Yeah....

Anywho, if you pay close attention to his math, you see that the .77 is before the 35% reduction in swing time. he used 21*2/.77/.65 bla bla bla. Do you see the .65? That is the 35% reduction in swing speed. (1.00 - .35 = .65) This is high school math there man, its not too hard.

I said 1.1, because that's what I found on some wiki. Then I tested it myself multiple times and got 26 swings in 20 seconds without any perk. That's 0.77 swing timer by default. I was surprised about it myself. Then I used console to get first rank from the dw speed perk and my attack speed increased to 31 per 20 second. That is consistent with 20% speed increase. That's why I am increasing it by 35%, it's how it works in game.

Maybe go to my orginal post and look up the quoted OP post. He states that without the dw perk it took him more than a second for one swing but after taking the dual wield perk that value went down to 0.77

So now when you know this info was posted by your guru not by myself, then why is he allowed to once more speed up your swings by 35% if he already done it once ????

Might want to look at the post above yours.

When swinging both weapons at once (non power attack), do you simply do damage of both weapons or is one of the hands reduced by a certain%?

Full damage with both weapons I do believe.

I see this is pointless to continue, nothing I or you guys say has any impact whatsoever.
I`m gonna use my time on something else than this fruitless debates.
In the end all play styles are valid and fun, fighting over some numbers wont change it.

I dont know if it has been stated...but when comparing melee damage to magic damage we have to remember that the enemies also have an armor rating wich is completly bybass by destruction magic. So unless you use maces at a high level I think it should be taken into account.

Do we want to take into account enemies that have magic resistance too? Bretons say hi.

But you are right in that we should take into account the armor of enemies, however, without the CK, I'm not sure how to find out exactly. Interesting note though, from the math shown, enemies would need something like 66% physical damage resistance to make the two equal-ish, and I really doubt they have that much.

Allowing us to put down a few more runes would certainly help. They do some nice damage, but one at a time is really limiting.

So in your opinion the damage output of a warrior and mage should be the same? Can you tell me why that is since both builds require different play styles? Why should their damage output be similar? Would it not be best to compare how the mage fares against the game with out thinking about how the one-handed fares? Its almost if you are you are saying if the mage can put out the amount of damage a one-handed can its not worth playing. But, as we all know, a mage had other abilities to compensate for the lack of damage it can deal with other spells.


in other words, why does it matter how a mage compares to a one-handed specialist when both are different and will have different experiences in the game world.

I never said damage should be the same. You were throwing variables in for melee, so I threw them in for magic. You are putting words into my mouth that I never said.

As for do I care which one does more damage, not at all. I would like to see some form of damage scaling so you can see some improvement in destruction damage. For the magicka cost of the expert and master spells, they do not do enough damage. I would assume that they made this so to ensure only mages would use these spells. It worked, but now the only way mages can use these spells for any of the more...damage absorbent enemies is with either massive potion consumption, or the all time favorite "Gear of Free Destruction Spells". I think that making spells cost nothing is broken. Maybe I am wrong, but I've never seen an RPG where the end goal was to divorce the mage from his magic bar. Of course, you could always say, "Then don't use it" but then we're back to the part where the spells cost too much for too little damage.

Just skimmed to your conclusion and anyone playing a mage already knows you're wrong.

EDIT: oh wait, this is that same thread last week..

I just wanted to throw my two cents into the pile. For reference, I am a level 52 pure mage (0 combat perks outside of magical skill trees). I rely on Destro for ALL my damage. I have 0 perks in conjuration and have only learned the soul stealing spell from that school. I have many alteration spells, many restoration spells, and a couple of illusion spells I almost never use. I also have 100 Enchanting and Smithing, but ignore alchemy (I never remember to use the pots). I play on Normal difficulty.

Anyway, my two cents. You make a very valid and indisputable point that dual wielding weapons is WAY stronger than dual wielding spells. Now I'll make my point...Who cares? 146.25 damage per second is WAY more than enough to floor the entire game, dragons and dragon priests and super druegar and everything. I know, I've done it (and at a lesser amount of damage than 146.25, since I never use alchemy). So if anything, dual wielding melee weapons needs a MASSIVE nerf. Saying Destro needs to be as broken and dual wielding melee is just silly.

As for difficulties above Normal, I have no idea. However, I do know that all difficulties above normal are supposed to be HARD. Possibly SUPER hard. Maybe Super-Insane-Rediculous-You-Get-The-Idea Hard. So while Destro may be much more challenging on harder difficulties...isn't that what you're going for if you play on those harder difficulty settings? I mean, which is more important to you when you play on a difficulty setting higher than normal; having a challenging game play experience or finding the silly broken combo that trivializes what should otherwise be a challenging game play experience? If it is the latter, than sure, Destro needs to be "fixed." But if you play on harder difficulty settings for the latter reason...uh...yeah...get a life? I am not really sure what to say to you. LOL

If you play on harder difficulty settings because you want a more challenging game play experience...why are you complaining it is more challenging?

Anyway, that is all...

I treat magic as a hit and run weapon now, that and impact perk can lock a mob in place to unload on it, I have not problems, high end melee is clearly better but magic can still hold its own. Like you all said , numbers don't lie however I think 100 dps is good enough.

That's coming from a guy how plays melee most of the time any way

Really don't need math and statistics to find out that mages svcks, all you have to do to find that out is start the game and play for a few minutes. Damage is crap, survivability even worse ( 1 hit = dead on expert), only way to survive is spending points in HP and stacking armor, which isnt very mage like. Gear is ok at best ( not found a single mage glove / boot in game though ). Hope they give mages some love in a patch, otherwise I guess we have to rely on modders to do that.