I actually felt the whole Helgen sequence was going out of its way to grey up both sides. The opening cart ride sides you very strongly with the stormcloaks, then you have Tulius claiming that Ulfric started the war and the empire is restoring the peace. Ralof is your 'brother in binds' and rushes to save you from the headsman, but then the stormcloaks flee to save themselves and Hadvar is rushing to the defense of the city. I get the sense they were intentionally giving the players reason to find either side supportable right from the get go.

Sounds reasonable.

I like the civil war threads even tho they crop up a lot. They all seem to get wabbajacked at some point too but I enjoy the madness.

On topic tho I never really noticed the lack of women legion members. Pretty much seals the deal right there.

If Skyrim was ESO, I challenge to a duel.

*do not forget, I am the ultimate rabbit, that is not a mod that is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWCH2Nwsss

**kind of how I feel this heading right now*

I have. Colonel posts a lot, but he doesn't make all that many threads, as far as I know. My point was that this thread is not about what you say it is about. He isn't bashing, and didn't claim his theory to be truth (even admitted that it likely wasn't). He's just bringing up a question that hasn't really been raised much around here. That is, if the devs originally intended for a Stormcloaks only civil war. There are some reasons to believe this possible. They have definitely shown some bias towards them over the Imperials.

I admit it, you lost me.

I would've bet money that that link was to the rabbit from Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail.

I'd have lost money.

As far we as know, it is open to interpretation where all gamers stand. Problem is CW has been beaten down to death, yet it seems he wants to continue. Perhaps it is because his stance and I see another CW debate with him. Perhaps I need to listen this song more often, I think him as well:

(from a Bethesda sponsored game [promise I will not "interfere more" as it seems to be]): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAmjy_rYPpc

I just want to join forces with Dagoth Ur damnit!!!

I have to agree about the gender thing....I think that is a huge reach. Now, does the game seem to push you towards the stormcloak side from the beginning? In my opinion, it does. Heck, they are going to execute your character for seemingly no reason......

And the Stormcloaks did nothing to disavow you from their group.

Lokir's cries of "Tell them we're not rebels!" was met with "Face your death with some courage, horse-thief" from Ralof.

I think the prologue at Helgen gives you plenty of bone to pick with both of them.

Likely because they knew it was useless. The Empire wouldn't take their word on it, they'd just say you were a spy. Even when I did side with the Empire my first playthrough, this thought never ran through my head.

"We are borthers and sisters in binds, horse thief", while our PC rides the cart. Both sides are messed up. MQ outside of CW is probably the way to go, if that part is canon. Who knows.

Yeah, my first time ever playing Oblivion(first TES game too) I had a desire to join the Mythic Dawn. During the MQ when you find their lair I genuinely thought I could actually join them... I was disappointed. Sigh...

I had a similar desire in Fallout 3 too.

They'd pass up an opportunity to rag on the Empire about killing innocents? I doubt it.

Then there's also the fact that the ambush wouldn't have been there in the first place if the Stormcloaks weren't rousing rabble.

That's a huge stretch to blame the stormcloaks for that. After all, they were not the ones executing you.....

Just like it's a huge stretch to say Tullius did nothing to stop it when all signs point to him being background scene dressing at that point? Just like the list taker one cart over that was saying nothing? Or how the cue may have been mis-set, just like the legionnaire who was saying "It's in the clouds!" when Alduin is all but perched on the turret and belting off Shouts?

Wait. Tullius getting blamed for doing nothing when he was just set dressing at that point *isn't* a stretch. Forgot.

Albeit harsh, but the border was CLOSED. Who knows the law was that strict when our PCs played, but that is how our PCs had to face.

Blame Bethesda for poor writing (although where our PCs come up with backsotries).

Doubtful. The Empire execution thing in the beginning was just another thing to make the choice not entirely obvious.. also a plot device to introduce the current situation right away.

We dont know how the ambush happened, but anyway, yea I bet they would pass it up when they're about to be executed to a crowd saying death to the stormcloaks. Obviously no one's buying what they're selling.

He was "in love" with Ulfric (from another thread conversation). Honestly, he was too proud to capture Ulfric and did not pay attention, or give a damn, on our character. For your character, it is upsetting to say the least, but that is how Beth resented to us and how we interpret that situation. The only issue was THE BORDER WAS CLOSED, and our PC was close proximity to Ulfric. Thus, the debate.

Would have loved to see generic women in the Legion. Would have been nice. I blame 11-11-11.

Or some Orcs.. maybe even a Dunmer or two from Windhelm. That'd be nice.

Then again.. the whole Civil War is just a giant "what could have been?"

They don't really give you a reason for your execution, other than being in the proximity of stormcloaks trying to cross the border. You can imagine whatever you want obviously, and maybe it was poor writing, but it does seem slanted towards a distrust for the legion.....

I see what you mean, Colonel. The beginning of the game really shows that. Probably left a huge impression on most newbies to TES (myself included...for a time.)

Anything to make the supposedly diverse Legion more diverse. Oh well. At least they Have an Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton for the positions of Legate.