Dialog System : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:26 pm

Alternatively, try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZOlipfjkQ demonstration of what a specialised software (Yamaha's Vocaloid, in this case) is capable of.

Oh god, Vocaloids... I will never be able to listen to that one Lady Gaga song without hearing "creamy swan dive into a mime" because of those things. Not the best example. :rofl:

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:24 am

I don't feel like reading 9 pages, but I voted Morrowind style. I like to read. Also it got pretty boring hearing those voices all the time. Also as was said, all the races sound the same, and when it was different, some races just sounded the same as well. It gets tiring hearing the same thing being said over and over again. Voice acting is not that great because it's so limitating, because it takes up so much memory storage you don't have that many options to do anything.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:35 am

Yes, but Microsoft wouldn't let do that since there's people without hard drives. No 360 game is limitative.

I'm pretty sure there already are games on the 360 which require a harddrive, could be wrong though.

Plus, we don't even know if the 360 is designed to make solely install discs possible, every game with multiple discs work on their own and installation isn't necessary.

The GOTY Edition of Oblivion, came with a separate disc with all the DLC which could be installed, then you never needed the dlc disc to actually play it, so it is possible. I also have multiple of my games installed to the 360's hard drive, when I play those games I need to put the disc in, but that is simply so it can rectify that I have the game, once it has recognized the game, the disc simply stops.

So really, I wouldn't trust too much for Microsoft to make this possible and TES games are not enough linear to have several disks working on their own.

TES games aren't linear enough to have several disc working on there own, but they wont need to work on there own if one of them can be installed.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:33 pm

The GOTY Edition of Oblivion, came with a separate disc with all the DLC which could be installed, then you never needed the dlc disc to actually play it, so it is possible. I also have multiple of my games installed to the 360's hard drive, when I play those games I need to put the disc in, but that is simply so it can rectify that I have the game, once it has recognized the game, the disc simply stops.

That's different, the content on the second disc was DLC, an expansion that could fit on one disc and not a necessary part of the game. It's not a dvd which only features dialog and textures for example, we don't really know if the 360 can install games like the pc. I know of games which work less good if you don't have an hard drive, but I never heard of a game not working on a console without an hard drive, I'd be surprised for Microsoft to accept such a high profile game to not work on small hard drives at least, which are only 20 gig. 16-17 gig in fact.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:51 am

That's different, the content on the second disc was DLC, an expansion that could fit on one disc and not a necessary part of the game. It's not a dvd which only features dialog and textures for example, we don't really know if the 360 can install games like the pc.

Well, technically the 360 is a PC, it's running a form of windows if I'm not mistaken. I don't see much of a difference, at least I'd see no indication that it can't be done, the only difference I can see between the DLC and the text/dialog, is that one of them obviously needs to be installed, it would be like the DLC being mandatory, but in the end, it's all just data.

I know of games which work less good if you don't have an hard drive, but I never heard of a game not working on a console without an hard drive, I'd be surprised for Microsoft to accept such a high profile game to not work on small hard drives at least, which are only 20 gig. 16-17 gig in fact.

I think I was thinking of Dowloadable games from xbox live, when I thought of games which required hard disc. they obviously require a harddisc, but are not really relevant in this context.

Anyways, who actually plays TES without a hard disc? I mean all the DLC would require a hard disc, so whoever plays without hard disc is playing without DLC. In any case, Oblivion was only 4.6gb large, so they haven't even maxed out a single dvd, I think having a small hard disc would be okay. I mean I have 60gb on mine and only 8gb free, but hell I'd delete whatever if it made me able to play TES V.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:46 am

Voice acting surely, I just love to take the text away from dialogs and just talk to the characters in the game as i'd talk to real persons, no text included. However mostly I do have the text on too, just to make sure I understand everything.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:08 pm

:huh: I am yet to see a game where we could talk to characters like real life.

Maybe this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIbGnBQcJY

It would be cool though.

I like all voice spent on AI talks and get rid of the need for both text and linear quest voice acting for normal gameplay. Keep it layered and for the ones who are interested give more information via text dialog. Add voice acting to key moments of storyline.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:31 pm

Voice acting please!! Do we really want to relive the 1980/90s Amiga style text
RPG? Yeahs its cool but nobody outside the realms of the RPG fan would find that practicle..or would they??

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:31 am

I always turn off the subtitles.

Otherwise I read the text too quickly. Not using the subtitles is much more immersive and really adds to the story experience, allowing you to enjoy the voice actor's performance and the facial animation.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:40 am

:huh: I am yet to see a game where we could talk to characters like real life.

Maybe this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIbGnBQcJY

It would be cool though.

I like all voice spent on AI talks and get rid of the need for both text and linear quest voice acting for normal gameplay. Keep it layered and for the ones who are interested give more information via text dialog. Add voice acting to key moments of storyline.

Wow, that looks amazing! thanks for sharing this link. I hope there is some kind of Natal apparatus available in the future for PC users who don't have an XBox.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:33 pm

:huh: I am yet to see a game where we could talk to characters like real life.

Maybe this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPIbGnBQcJY

It would be cool though.

I like all voice spent on AI talks and get rid of the need for both text and linear quest voice acting for normal gameplay. Keep it layered and for the ones who are interested give more information via text dialog. Add voice acting to key moments of storyline.

If Oblivion had dialogue interaction like this it would warrant a purchase of the kinect.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:43 am

Voice-acting is a huge waste of space, but the 'immersion' AKA "Lack of having to read" is what'll make the game 'great' AKA "huge sales and brings new people, annoys old fans".

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:23 am

Voice-acting is a huge waste of space, but the 'immersion' AKA "Lack of having to read" is what'll make the game 'great' AKA "huge sales and brings new people, annoys old fans".

Not true, if you get a letter in game, that is still immersive.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:27 pm

Not true, if you get a letter in game, that is still immersive.

Depends entirely on how I get the letter and who get is.

Do I get it the moment I first step out of some sewer into the daylight, suddenly blocking my view? Not immersive.

Do I get it by some messenger who visits me in an illusionary dreamscape where entering is only possible under very special circumstances and leaving seems totally impossible? Not immersive.

Does my lowest-INT-possible, can't-possibly-have-learn-to-read Orc barbarian get it? Not immersive. Why would anyone send him expensive toilet paper anyway?

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:10 pm

Depends entirely on how I get the letter and who get is.

Do I get it the moment I first step out of some sewer into the daylight, suddenly blocking my view? Not immersive.

When I say in game letter, I mean a letter recognized by the game world, like the dark brotherhood notes.

Do I get it by some messenger who visits me in an illusionary dreamscape where entering is only possible under very special circumstances and leaving seems totally impossible? Not immersive.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're getting at, I was objecting to the notion that Immersion has something to do with a lack of need to read, by presenting examples of reading that are immersive a.k.a. in game letters. The scenario you present here, is irrelevant to the immersiveness of letters, even if you get the letter, it is still required reading that is immersive, it is the way you acquired it that is not immersive, but not the letter in it self, it could be any other thing you acquired this way, and the delivery would still not be immersive.

Does my lowest-INT-possible, can't-possibly-have-learn-to-read Orc barbarian get it? Not immersive. Why would anyone send him expensive toilet paper anyway?

I would love attributes effecting something like that, however, the quest would then possibly be a dead end, so if it is possible to make a character who can't comprehend reading, than one should be able to have someone else translate the information. But really, even fairly stupid people can still read, and I'm sure there are highly intelligent people who can't read, it's a skill one has to learn, regardless of intelligence.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:44 am

I chose "Morrowind/Daggerfall style" AND "robo-voices". I did not choose Oblivion-style. I will NEVER choose Oblivion-style. I am of the opinion that the expense involved in full voice acting is THE culprit behind the rather serious scaling back of the number of quests and, more importantly, the number of joinable factions and different possible story paths. Full voice acting increases the marginal cost of added dialogue, which makes them more likely to leave out extra dialogue that would make it into a text-only or limited voice game.

That said, if they can make the advance to robo-voices, this would cut the marginal cost of adding extra dialogue down to almost nothing, certainly as compared to having every line of dialogue acted out by a human being. This would enable them to have a rich quest and faction system AND full voice for the non-readers among us. It doesn't have to be perfect, imo.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:25 pm

While I think that there are many benefits to having dialogue text-only, I seriously doubt it would ever happen, as many gamers would probably see this as a step backwards when comparing it to contemporary RPGs - even if you end up with more content, it would still seem old fashioned to some and might put people off.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Am I the only person that gets annoyed when someone asks for another person's opinion, and that other person goes into detail about everybody's opinion but his own?

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:39 am

Getting a letter everytime I wanna do a quest is just boring and immersion breaking. Why does no one ever want to speak to me? I seriously don't see the problem with extra discs.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:20 am

Getting a letter everytime I wanna do a quest is just boring and immersion breaking.

Daydark said nothing about getting a letter every time you do a quest. You are misrepresenting his words. He simply stated that in-game letters can be immersive. Which is a fact. They can be.

Any well-designed game will initiate quests in a variety of ways. Oblivion started quests using several methods: script-added notes, forced encounters with NPCs, overheard conversations, etc. There's no reason to assume TES V will be any different.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:22 pm

Judging by these comments I can tell that none of you have actually played Morrowind. If you had any idea of how much more dialog there was in Morrowind I don't think you'd be saying this. I don't know why everyone is so impressed with Dragon Age, honestly I thought it was one of the worst rpg's in years. I wont get too much into why, but Dragon Age, Bloodlines, or Red Dead Redemption didn't have much dialog compared to Morrowind.

You don't realize how much of a limitation voice acting really is, even if you forget about the money and the extra diskspace... it's limiting your mind, your own imagination, which in turn makes games less realistic because if you have no imagination how can you fully take in a imaginary world! If Bethesda truly want's people to appreciate their work to it's fullest then they need to keep their imaginations alive! So for the love of god don't fill the game with voice acting, and instead make a much larger and immersive imaginary world for us.

Don't get me wrong you should hire a good bunch of non famous voice actors to do passing by dialog like Morrowind and a maybe bit of common speak for npc's to talk to each other about.. like the weather, worldly events and whispers for secrets but when you get close they hush up unless your sneak is high enough in which case you should have an option to listen in secretly this would be done with just a simple text box with all the dialog written in it and an close or ok button somewhere maybe even a write to journal button that'd awesome, could really add an investigative feel to the game if you wanted to play like an investigator. See the possibilities when we aren't limited to voice acting.

I completely agree with that. I am hard of hearing so I suppose it's very easy for me to come to that same conclusion - when games are fully voiced it immediately restricts choices within the game, whilst (for me at least) adding very little - because I'm reading the subtitles anyway. I'd much rather have 15+ unvoiced dialogue topics (as in Morrowind) rather than 4 voiced topics. For me it is completely obvious.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:03 am

Daydark said nothing about getting a letter every time you do a quest. You are misrepresenting his words. He simply stated that in-game letters can be immersive. Which is a fact. They can be.

Any well-designed game will initiate quests in a variety of ways. Oblivion started quests using several methods: script-added notes, forced encounters with NPCs, overheard conversations, etc. There's no reason to assume TES V will be any different.

Ah, my bad. The whole "letters" concept is usually given as some kind f workaround. I just assumed that's what this was.

My point is, to those that believe letters can replace dialogue in a fully voiced world, that it's just ridiculous to be constantly given letters. Sure, they an work. It was used a lot from Daggerfall-Oblivion. (Maybe Arena) But constantly being used would just reduce the novelty.

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:33 am

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're getting at,

The fact that getting a letter means someone reaching you with it, which in Oblivion's engine simply didn't work. NPCs ignore even simple things like locked doors when trying to reach you (or their goal) the moment you're not around.

» Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:05 pm

(The votes are about equal) + (Most of the people that posted in the thread, opposed fully voice acted dialogs and described the problems in detail)

This means:

(Most of the people that voted for completely voice acted dialogs had nothing to say about their choice) or (Did not bother to post) or

(Just looked at the choice and voted what they felt good and passed on without thinking about it and the reasons for the choices).

» Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:28 am

Ah, my bad. The whole "letters" concept is usually given as some kind f workaround. I just assumed that's what this was.

My point is, to those that believe letters can replace dialogue in a fully voiced world, that it's just ridiculous to be constantly given letters. Sure, they an work. It was used a lot from Daggerfall-Oblivion. (Maybe Arena) But constantly being used would just reduce the novelty.

I agree, letters aren't a good replacement, but they make for a good addition, imo, spices up diversity.

The fact that getting a letter means someone reaching you with it, which in Oblivion's engine simply didn't work. NPCs ignore even simple things like locked doors when trying to reach you (or their goal) the moment you're not around.

Yeah, I can see what you're objecting to, but I just don't get what it exactly has to do with my particular post, I'm not defending Oblivions engine, or way of handling it, I was defending the idea of getting in game recognized letters/journal pages/notes/files is required reading yet still immersive. Really, now that I think about it, Kalarn probably wasn't serious, or merely trying to ridicule, I guess I took the bait.

(The votes are about equal) + (Most of the people that posted in the thread, opposed fully voice acted dialogs and described the problems in detail)

This means:

(Most of the people that voted for completely voice acted dialogs had nothing to say about their choice) or (Did not bother to post) or

(Just looked at the choice and voted what they felt good and passed on without thinking about it and the reasons for the choices).

Or they didn't want to bother getting into an argument, or didn't want to repeat what someone else already said, or merely read the question and answered not just what "felt good" but their actual preference. I'm not sure what your trying to insinuate, but it seems like your trying to downplay the votes for full voice acting.